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Author Topic: Ki Health: Verdade's Positive Experiences  (Read 4345 times)

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August 11, 2008, 11:02:24 PM
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Offline verdade

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Ki Health: Verdade's Positive Experiences
« on: August 11, 2008, 11:02:24 PM »
I have known the Ki Health organization for many years and would like to tell you what I know about it. I do not intend to convince anyone of anything, because, as with most things in the world today, people have already formed their own opinions. But for what is worth, here is the story.

I lived in the East for many years, and it would be impossible to set out in a few words the tremendous challenges I underwent in trying to understand and adapt to a culture so different from mine. Not just the language barrier and all that was “lost in translation”, but they also seemed to live by a different set of logical, ethical and moral codes from mine. 

One such example was what I perceived to be their lack of moral dilemma regarding “lies”. They seemed to lie with a moral abandon that bewildered me. Eventually, I came to realize that what I perceived as lying was for them “protection”, i.e., to protect others from the pain and discomfort of the “truth”. From an early age they learn to “protect” their parents from the truth and vice-versa. There is a saying in Korean that loosely translated states that "if you want to lose a friend tell him what you really think of him."

Space does not permit me to go through all the assaults my cultural identity suffered in the process of living with people so diagonally opposite to me, but one stands out more than any other, which is the question of individuality. In the East, conformity is a virtue to be cultivated, and individuality a character flaw to be overcome. To hold one’s personal, individual opinion in defiance of the group’s consensus is either a heroic or foolhardy act. They have a word, “chung”, which defines the ideal of “group harmony”, and religion is one of the glues that binds the group together. Hence, so many religious groups flourish in the East. The group conformity has taken its most extreme shape in North Korea. In China, Mao Tse Tung had to outlaw religion in order for communism to flourish – religion being the main threat to the authority of the state. Up until this day, religious persecution is alive and well in China.

To give money to a religious organization is seen as part of their “chung” philosophy and to be doing good for the whole. The commendable “doing good for the group” has an ugly side – when things go wrong, not only is the group to be blamed but also torn down to restore a sense of dignity to those who felt betrayed by it. This lack of individual accountability set the stage for much of what happened to Jungshim Association in Korea. Official corruption, bribes, manufactured evidence, were all thrown in the mix, but that is a long story.   

In all truth, nobody makes us do anything. When a person chooses to depart with large amounts of money that person is solely responsible for the consequences, and no matter how much you want to construct a moral argument around it, it will never replace individual responsibility. One example comes to mind. I lost all of my life’s savings in the stock market crash of 1987. No doubt I blamed the stock broker who advised me to invest all my money in the stock market, but with the sobriety of time, I realized that I was solely responsible for the decision I made, driven by, I am not ashamed to say, the prospect of making more money. Whether one is driven by the prospect of greater profit or the desire for better health, does not eliminate the individual decision of who or what one chooses to trust.

When a doctor presents you with a diagnosis and a prognosis, he is only speaking about possibilities and probabilities. There is never any certainty that a person will be cured no matter what method that person employs. If I were diagnosed with cancer I would not subject myself to surgery or chemotherapy or radiation even though doctors would be telling me that was what I had to do. I also wouldn’t be able to afford it. A relative lost her life as well as her life’s savings in her cancer cure. For her, the world ended even though she put all her trust and money in her “cure”.

So, on the subject of the world ending, indeed, the world will end for all of us, it is called death. When we look at some of the statistics coming from scientific and environmental organizations, we could be forgiven for thinking of them as doomsayers. Almost fifty percent of all the world’s primates are facing extinction, and you don’t need to be a Darwinian to know that primates are our closest relatives; if they go…. About ninety percent of all the world’s species have already become extinct and we are now witnessing the greatest rate of extinction ever recorded in human history. World leaders cannot agree on ways to tackle global warming, energy crisis, overpopulation, deforestation, water shortage, shrinking arable lands, desertification, AIDS, etc, etc, etc.

The founders of the Jungshim Association were warning people of the dire situation of our planet. Indeed, they believe that life is at a peril, as do so many scientists, who are not however, called doomsayers. Of course, one could argue that scientists are not taking large amounts of money to “save” people; they are instead, taking large amounts of research grants to come up with solutions to “save” people. The Jungshim founders, however, introduced a little known fact as yet undetected by science, which is, the planet is running out of energy – the very energy that sustains and supports all of the planet’s life systems as well as our own lives. Thus, they gave people a system to recharge the body with energy and the potential to heal illnesses. They also introduced many spiritual concepts that although unfamiliar to the modern human mind, were prevalent in ancient times. They believe that many of today’s problems stem from a lack of a spiritual connection with the source of life (some call it God). The twist in this sorrowful tale is that their message was so misunderstood, misinterpreted and hijacked by other religious groups with a vested interest in neutralizing the competition.     
 
There is little doubt that a new religion will always be labeled a cult. A bunch of renegades following a man called Jesus 2000 years ago was, by every definition of the term, a cult. Hard to believe that a few hundred years later, it had become the dominant religion of the very people who had nailed its leader to the cross. Jungshim is not, however, a “new” religion. It is deeply steeped in traditional eastern beliefs that go back many thousands of years, and because these beliefs have been supplanted by more recent ones, does not make them false. Ancestral worship was practiced in many civilizations of the ancient world, from Egypt to India, from North and South America to Oceania and parts of Europe. The Etruscan civilization, which was overpowered by the Romans, had a deep and reverential respect for ancestors, believing that much of what happens to a person’s life has its roots in the past, in the way ancestors lived and died. They performed elaborate ceremonies to honor their ancestors. The founders of Jungshim also believe that we carry much karma from our ancestors. We may choose to believe or not that this is the case. No one can force us to believe it.

It is, however, not just a question of belief but how much one pays for this belief. It has been claimed that people have paid large amounts of money to do ancestral healing. Personally I have great difficulty with judging costs, but I do know that I have never given the organization any more than I wanted to. The “they made me do it” argument is a very thin one. Individual responsibility may not be a prominent feature in eastern culture but it is at the core of western culture.

When we decide to do something, whether it is a new healing method or buy a car, we know the risks we are taking. Even if I pay a large amount of money for a car, it may still break down or I might smash it. What usually happens is that when people feel that it has failed them, they want some kind of recompense. There may be many reasons why something fails, but from my experience, it is usually to do with our own selves. For many people this is too hard to digest, and it is so much easier to believe that the method failed.

That is however, a difficult argument to prove because of the thousands of people who regained their health through this healing method, me included. And yes, there is no doubt in my mind that the ancestral healing had much to do with it. Long ago, I reached the conclusion that there are no incurable diseases, but there are incurable people.

To finalize, to claim that people who believe in the Jungshim principles are cultists is akin to claiming that all Muslims are terrorists and all Catholic priests are sexual predators. People tend to absorb ready-made information that is easy to digest. Not many people have the time or the energy to reflect deeply about issues that are not usually covered by the mass media. What is the purpose of human life? What is God? What is my relationship (if there is one) with God? Is God, the Earth and humanity, one and the same? Is nature spiritual as well as material? Is the separation of spirit and matter the cause of disease as well as environmental breakdown? What is the reason and purpose of suffering? It is up to each person to elucidate the mystery of life or forever blame others for not giving them the answers or healing them. What I discovered was that only I could heal myself and only after discovering who I am and why I became sick. The Ki healing method simply gave me the tools to heal myself. It is trying to reawaken our connection with nature and the fundamental principles that govern life.

It sounds good, but what about the money? It is an often repeated argument that spiritual matters have nothing to do with money. Unfortunately, the landlord is not very spiritual, and neither are the electricity and phone companies or the supermarket. Most of the Ki centers are located in the most expensive cities in the world, some in the most central locations to make it very accessible to people. The cost of running a centre which also has to support its practitioners is very high. And they set themselves up a very ambitious agenda – to make this healing method available to as many people in the world.

The founders of Jungshim had a very ambitious agenda and a misplaced trust in people. They believed that people were donating large sums of money to them because they believed in what they were doing, and once they gave it they wouldn’t ask for it back. They can be accused of spectacular naivety or misguided trust but not ill-intention. They firmly believe that Ki energy is the solution to many of our world’s problems and want to share this belief with all people in the world. The way they went about it may be questionable but I am not in a position (and neither is anyone else) to fully understand what they know and what they see. Throughout human history there have been people with the capacity to use more of their senses than the rest of us. They seem to have a window into the future that others have no access to. But only in hindsight can we know if they are true or not.

 


August 12, 2008, 01:09:26 AM
Reply #1

Offline Kuki

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Re: Ki Health
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2008, 01:09:26 AM »
What exactly has building a large Casino, got to do with saving the planet or helping people regain there health?   Many people experienced extreme stress due to the fact that they were asked and foolishly obliged , to give huge soms of money to this organisation. Its a pretty well known fact that great stress is bad for ones health and happiness. The grandmasters by all accounts live a life of great luxury, presumably from money given by devotees, whereas the followers live a life of poverty, can't quite see how this will save the world!

August 12, 2008, 04:22:18 AM
Reply #2

Offline Peter

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Re: Ki Health: Verdade's Positive Experiences
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2008, 04:22:18 AM »
I have known the Ki Health organization for many years and would like to tell you what I know about it. I do not intend to convince anyone of anything, because, as with most things in the world today, people have already formed their own opinions. But for what is worth, here is the story.

Thanks for posting, and yes I guess my opinion has already been formed, but I am open to hearing from both sides... but I've got to say that really wasn't worth much at all.
If you ever do decide to try and convince me otherwise, you would have to do a lot better than that.
You blame the victims, you blame cultural differences, you blame everybody and everything except the founders and the organization they created.
That really is the typical response from someone who has lost their ability to view their group critically.

I have a lot of questions for you, if you don't mind answering them. Here's a couple to start things off.

1) Are you still involved with Ki Health these days, and if so, what's your position / role?

2) Are you currently receiving treatments, if not, why not? If yes, how much are you paying for them?

3) The kihealth.org website, until a couple of weeks ago said this on its homepage:

Quote
Ki Health International is a registered charity in the UK. It is run entirely by Ki Masters, who work unpaid, dedicating their lives to helping others.

(Interestingly that it was very recently removed)

In your experience, is it true that the Ki Masters are unpaid?
From your post and justifications given for the fees paid, I would assume not?

4)
Quote
Official corruption, bribes, manufactured evidence, were all thrown in the mix, but that is a long story.   

If you're going to make such accusations, at least offer something more than "but that's a long story."
At least what is your source? I'm guessing it came from a Ki Master?

I suspect that's just cult lies designed to lessen the impact of the criminal convictions of dozens of members in Korea, but you're welcome to try prove me wrong.
You did begin your post by describing your surprise at how often and easily people from the East lie. (Apart from people involved with JMS, I've got to say I haven't noticed people lying in the "East" anymore than anywhere else) People usually lie when they are trying to hide something or take advantage of someone. Cults tell lies when recruiting members - part of the deceptive recruiting that defines cults - that isn't a trait unique to Asian cults.
But anyway, given that it's your experience that people in Asia lie a lot, and assuming the source of your allegations is KiHealth... why would you believe them?

5) I'd also like to know what you make of the casino plans.

But to be a little more sincere and less sarcastic, I really do appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences here and hope you'll stick around for some discussion.
And although I think we'll disgree some more, you're always welcome to post here.

Actually one more, could you tell me how to get to the retreat in Korea? I'd love to check it out.
As the owner of one of the few sites labeling Kihealth a cult, I really should check them out for myself.
I did ask the London Branch, but they didn't reply.
 :'(

August 14, 2008, 11:44:10 PM
Reply #3

Offline Peter

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Re: Ki Health: Verdade's Positive Experiences
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 11:44:10 PM »
Verdade, if your still reading I just edited the title of your thread from the generic "Ki Health" to "Ki Health: Verdade's Positive Experiences"

Nothing else was changed, I just wanted the thread title to be a little clearer. Hope you don't mind.

I also hope you'll stick around to further the discussion.

August 18, 2008, 08:09:23 PM
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Offline verdade

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Ki Health: second thoughts
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 08:09:23 PM »
Further to my previous post I would like to clarify the following:

The cultural differences I mentioned were just an illustration of the misunderstandings that crop up when a set of cultural beliefs is transplanted from one culture to another. Many of the Ki healing principles are not found in western thinking. The concept of energy healing is in its infancy in the west, while it has been practiced in the east for thousands of years.

The greatest single difference between eastern and western thinking is the western insistence on the separation of spirit and matter, and body and mind. Such separation is not a recent one, judging by Plato’s comment that, “the cure of many diseases is unknown to the physicians of Hellas, because they are ignorant of the whole, which ought to be studied also; for the part can never be well unless the whole is well. This is the great error of our day in the treatment of the human body, that the physicians separate the soul from the body.” Thus, science rules the physical world and religion rules the spiritual world.

A healing system that aims to heal the whole person is fraught with risks, and possible losses and gains. It is, however, an unfortunate truth that we make ourselves sick, but to know the reasons why and to get to the source of ill health is a phenomenal task.

When we are diagnosed with an illness we are usually made to feel that it is not our fault. Diagnostic tests may show that there is a malfunction in the immune system or the hormonal system or a faulty gene or… And the curative methods attack the sick part while leaving intact the cause of the illness.

Many people who come to the Ki health centers are people who have exhausted all the medical possibilities. Some suffer from life-threatening illnesses while others are suffering from excessive stress, chronic pain, debilitating fatigue or a general state of unwellness that cannot be easily diagnosed by conventional methods.

During the years I did Ki training I came across all kinds of people, from all walks of life – doctors, lawyers, architects, nurses, scientists, housewives, students, manual laborers, artists, etc. They also came from different religious backgrounds, but they all had one thing in common – a desire for better health. Some of them suffered from physical illnesses, others from mental illnesses. Some recovered their health, while others didn’t. I was interested to know why.

The training placed a strong emphasis on the mind. I was fascinated by the idea that the mind was not in the body, but the body was in the mind. This opened up all sorts of possibilities. Everything in my body was moved and controlled by my mind, and energy was the key that unlocked the door to the mind. But the mind is not simply what we know; what we like or dislike, want or don’t want, need or don’t need; the mind is also the repository of our history, both what we inherited from our families as well as the human race as a whole.

I believe these days we all accept that there are two sides to the mind: one conscious and the other unconscious. At the risk of sounding too simplistic, the conscious mind is all the nice stuff that we know about ourselves, and the unconscious is the rejected, suppressed, denied, and often projected onto others, stuff.

My experience with Ki training is that it opens a door to the deep recesses of the mind where much of the dark, hidden and suppressed material is stored. When this comes to the surface of the mind and becomes conscious, people are either distraught or grateful depending on their personal disposition.

Life is not simply a set of physical, chemical and biological rules, and anything that can’t be reduced to these rules is to be viewed with suspicion or awe. In this way people are divided into two groups: the “smart” ones who can see through the trickery, and the “gullible” ones who need to be rescued by the smart ones. None of the people I met during Ki training struck me as fitting into these categories.

What I saw was that some people were carrying tremendous pain buried deeply in their bodies and minds. People who were physically or psychologically abused as children; people who felt betrayed or abandoned by those they loved; people who felt that life had handled them a hard hand. Some of these people felt like victims (often unconsciously), while others were determined to overcome their limitations. And this, more than the healing method itself, seems to decide the outcome.

I recall four young girls who started training at approximately the same time, all suffering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (called ME in the U.K.). The one with the worst symptoms, and by all accounts, the worst prognosis, made a speedy recovery, while it took longer for the others. The one who took the longest was angry and frustrated at the slow pace of recovery. She often doubted that the training would help her, but she persisted. With time, she began to see deeper into her mind, and finally came to realize that the anger she felt had been inside her all along, and her illness as well as her difficult relationship with others stemmed from much deeper roots.

Ki training is tackling the root cause of illness and can have very different outcomes for different people. People might have the same illness but quite different causes. This is the reason that conventional medical treatments and “alternative” ones are so different, with the latter trying to heal the person rather than the disease. A “one pill fits all” approach doesn’t work in this context.

I feel deep sympathy for the people who felt let down by the training in whatever way they perceive that, however, during my years of training I saw nothing but compassion for people’s suffering. Ki practitioners are fully aware that they can’t help everybody but they do the best they can.

Finally, because I healed myself through Ki training, it doesn’t mean that I might never get sick again or that my life is perfect. Like everyone else, I have to deal with what life throws at me the best way I can. What I feel is that Ki training and the principles it espouses have given me the fortitude to deal with life’s challenges. And it has done this by helping me to know who I am and to better understand the world I live in.   



August 18, 2008, 08:50:00 PM
Reply #5

Offline Kuki

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Re: Ki Health: second thoughts
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 08:50:00 PM »
The statements made here about the oneness of Mind Body etc. are not unknown, outside of Ki Health International or whatever name this group of people are currently known as.
People from many different situations. philosophies healing methods religions etc understand the points being made and generally do not charge out rages sums of money or attempt to enslave people, as they help people to heal themselves.

August 18, 2008, 09:46:08 PM
Reply #6

Offline rb

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Re: Ki Health: second thoughts
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 09:46:08 PM »
I don't really want to get into this whole Ki Health stuff, but your (verdade's) reasoning is full of problems. This is a reply to both of your posts (I will merge this topic into the other one soon).

Firstly, all your cultural relativistic arguments fail to recognise that not everything is relative. There is a reason why Korea and Japan seem to more dense in cults then anywhere else. Because exaggerated collective thinking makes one completely vulnerable to getting exploited by others. So just because it can be conceptualised as a difference in culture, that isn't a bad thing? That's absurd.

In all truth, nobody makes us do anything. When a person chooses to depart with large amounts of money that person is solely responsible for the consequences, and no matter how much you want to construct a moral argument around it, it will never replace individual responsibility.

Ironically, from trying to justify cultic thinking as just a "cultural difference", you are now arguing from a Western premise.

Almost fifty percent of all the world’s primates are facing extinction, and you don’t need to be a Darwinian to know that primates are our closest relatives; if they go….

This reasoning is flawed. We are not dependent on primates for survival and just because we are similar doesn't mean that the forces that threaten primates also threaten us. They don't. While genetically we are similar to other primates, survival is a whole different story. We eat almost anything and can live almost anywhere. We are also clearly unmatched in our ability to control the environment.

About ninety percent of all the world’s species have already become extinct and we are now witnessing the greatest rate of extinction ever recorded in human history.

The first statement is true but doesn't argue the point you are using it for. Almost all of those extinctions occurred before modern humans were about. Most species do not survive. It's a fact of evolution and not a sign of "doomsday". The second is a threat to biodiversity but not so much to human life.

The Jungshim founders, however, introduced a little known fact as yet undetected by science, which is, the planet is running out of energy – the very energy that sustains and supports all of the planet’s life systems as well as our own lives. Thus, they gave people a system to recharge the body with energy and the potential to heal illnesses. They also introduced many spiritual concepts that although unfamiliar to the modern human mind, were prevalent in ancient times.

Earth doesn't have "energy". Modern science is quite capable of predicting things without invoking planetary energy (??). Those concepts were rejected because more modern concepts explain things much more accurately.

 
There is little doubt that a new religion will always be labeled a cult. ..etc

This is a common argument for cults and it a clear fallacy. Just because a few new religions (or even all) have been called cults and turned out to be mostly benign doesn't mean fitting the description of cult is irrelevant. The difference is in why they are called cults.

The “they made me do it” argument is a very thin one. Individual responsibility may not be a prominent feature in eastern culture but it is at the core of western culture.

..but we can ignore Western culture when talking about honesty, as that doesn't suit Ki Health, but not talking about responsibility, as it does help Ki Health? Hm.

When we decide to do something, whether it is a new healing method or buy a car, we know the risks we are taking.

Not if you're not told the risk. That's why there are legal safeguards so we can live in a world cooperatively. But it seems you would rather live in a world where I could sell someone a car with no engine, even after showing them the car with the engine. It's their fault for trusting me, huh.

to claim that people who believe in the Jungshim principles are cultists is akin to claiming that all Muslims are terrorists and all Catholic priests are sexual predators

No it's not. To claim all Muslims are terrorists is to overgeneralise. However, Peter and others do not seem to be calling Ki Health a cult based on one or two people, but because of features inherent in its structure. That's a not a generalisation.

Throughout human history there have been people with the capacity to use more of their senses than the rest of us. They seem to have a window into the future that others have no access to. But only in hindsight can we know if they are true or not.

Ugh. How can you not see that via this argue one could justify ANYTHING? Someone could go on a rampage and murder 50 people. When asked, they might say "I did it to save the world, you'll all know in 2050! I need to go kill another 50 other people to save the world!". Would you go, oh, let's wait until 2050. Let's not lock him up.. there's no way to know if he's a bad person or not. Providence makes the same argument. "Don't judge Jung, if he is false his religion will fall apart". So we should just sit around watching him serially rape, because that's 'salvation'.

If someone came up to you and said "if you don't give me all your money, you will die tomorrow by falling down the stairs" would you believe them? It seems a good bet, since life is more important than money, right? And only in highsight can we know if they are true or not.

I believe these days we all accept that there are two sides to the mind: one conscious and the other unconscious. At the risk of sounding too simplistic, the conscious mind is all the nice stuff that we know about ourselves, and the unconscious is the rejected, suppressed, denied, and often projected onto others, stuff.

I really hope you realise that this is Freudian psychology, barely a hundred years old, and has nothing to do with Eastern culture or long forgotten secrets. And, in the form you describe, totally discredited.

It's interesting that Scientology make the same argument. It's all based Freudian psychology, because it appeals to intuition, is relatively easy and seems to suggest anything is possible. Scientology is a cult, and it's Western. It doesn't seem to be that Ki Health being Korea has anything to do with its reputation as a cult.

In this way people are divided into two groups: the “smart” ones who can see through the trickery, and the “gullible” ones who need to be rescued by the smart ones. None of the people I met during Ki training struck me as fitting into these categories.

It's not that simple.

I recall four young girls who started training at approximately the same time, all suffering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (called ME in the U.K.).

CFS seems to be a common theme in mental health cons. The problem is that 'energy' is so vaguely defined.. someone can easily think they have more energy one day from the next with no objective difference. If there was an objective difference, it could be scientifically proven, and accepted and practiced by the mainstream. But of course mainstream medical practitioners are too stupid, arrogant and/or prejudiced to accept? But why would they be..?

Scientific medicine has proven itself time after time, even in meticulously designed tests. Spiritual healing as you claim hasn't except through the subjective uncritical eyes of some. And regardless, as Kuki said, what you describe is completely unoriginal and can be obtained for free.

September 07, 2008, 08:42:01 AM
Reply #7

Offline Peter

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Re: Ki Health: Verdade's Positive Experiences
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 08:42:01 AM »
Sorry Verdade, I have some bad news for you,
When your Jung Shim friends demanded I remove all material concerning them, I asked them about this thread.

"Remove that too" said a Miss Kim, who claimed to know you.

I asked why since the thread contained your account of positive experiences.

"Because she's an idiot," was the response of Miss Kim, who said it with a smile.

For the record, I disagree with your colleague and I don't think you're an idiot, but I'm sure your critical thinking skills have been reduced by the indoctrination you received.
But that's not permanent and hopefully you'll have them back soon.