Time for me to have a crack at this one. I won't respond to it all (yet), just the points that stand out the most for me.
In Defense of Jeong, Myeong-seok (정명석)
Jeong, Myeong-seok (정명석) is the controversial leader of a new religious movement generally known as Providence. His Korean name is not중뮹석, as the variant Romanization (1) of his name Jung, Myung Seok would suggest, but 정명석. His Western name is Joshua Jeong, or, using the older Romanization, Joshua Jung. He is also known as Seon Saeng Nim (선생님), the Korean word for teacher, as R for Rabbi, the Hebrew word for teacher, or as Pastor Joshua.
Yes he does have a point here. The correct romanization is Jeong Myeong-seok. I'm guilty of using the briefer Jung Myung-seok or Jung Myung Seok, more for convenience than anything else, but since I do do some editing for the Keimyung Engish Gazette and that involves trying to ensure Korean names are romanized correctly, I don't really have an excuse for using the incorrect spelling.
Jeong's name has recieved a variety of spellings including Cheong from I believe one of the Taiwan articles. And interesting, Providencetrial.com still uses Jung Myung Seok at times: http://www.providencetrial.com/Others/The-Wolmyungdong-Experience.html
I don't see it as a major issue. The most important thing is that whether people read about Jung Myung-seok or Jeong Myeong-seok, they know that it's the same man, the same cult leader, and the same "alleged" serial raper.
For consistancy, I'll try to stick with Jeong Myeong-seok. I can't change the url www.jungmyungseok.com
, but I'm glad that's there for those searching for that spelling on the Internet.
And it is good to see Providence members actually using Jeong's name, as opposed to the generic "Joshua" and "R" titles that I feel sure were designed to decrease the chance of recruits discovering too early that their new TV pastor was wanted by Interpol and not the globe-trotting humanitarian superhero Providence made him out to be.
Jeong, Myeong-seok has not been convicted of any crime in any country at any time. However, he has been accused of rape in South Korea, China, and Japan. He has also been referred to as “false Messiah” and “international fugitive.”
True, Jeong Myeng-seok hasn't been convicted of any crimes yet, but that would be on account of him fleeing Korea in 99 and then becoming a fugitive after Korean prosecuters laid several charges against him. As a defence, that is about as pathetic as they come.
Worth pointing out that Adolph Hitler and Jim Jones weren't convicted of any crimes either. And I think before too long, Jeong will be convicted of quite a few crimes.
First, what the rape charges are concerned, I cannot say it any better than an answer (2) in the faq section of providencetrial.com (3).
“To those who are familiar with the details of the allegations, there appears to be a consistent pattern that has emerged: the gathering of anonymous “victims” together in a public news conference in order to present allegations of rape. Only after the sensational details from the unknown victims have been reported by tabloid news media are any of the police agencies notified. The result is that there is no victim accountability, for when a victim’s identity remains unknown even to the police there can be never be a true investigation and the number of potential victims becomes limitless. A situation such as this provides no means for a fair trail; the news networks have already broadcast to the viewing public the sensational details of a crime for which no witnesses or evidence has ever been presented.”
Need I say more?
I wish you would.
The defence above suggests that the police filed charges after simply watching a TV news report.
No victim accountability? How do you know this? You are assuming the Police never interviewed, nor even know the identity of the victims. Do you really believe the police filed numerous charges, not all of them rape, without talking to a single witness?
And what about the crimes JMS members have been convicted of, the bashing of the father of the Exodus father?
Reinhardt, I would really apreciate it if you would share your thoughts on fellow Providence members who turn to voilence.
Another reason teacher Joshua’s word is so credible is its source. Jeong, Myeong-seok is a mystic. He spent 20 years in the mountains praying and fasting and never went to seminary.
Interesting because according to several Providence books and websites, Jeong did attend a seminary. Albeit a seminary I could find no evidence it existed:http://www.jmscult.com/gacp/www.gacp.org/index.html
Go to "About Us" and then "Founder"
And we have honorary doctorates from dubious institutions.
As to his 20 years praying and fasting (and avoiding work on the family farm) I consider that as about as plausible as Jeong's claims that while a fugitive, NASA sent some scientists to meet with him. (link to audio coming later)
So, opposition is to be expected. In fact, if there was no opposition, something would be wrong.
The presence of opposition is also an indication that there is something worth opposing.
Hitler was opposed, bad example considering Jeong praised Hitler, but I'm sure non-Providence members will get my point.
That the opposition would target their allegations where it could inflict the most pain in terms of discrediting Seon Saeng Nim’s teachings is also not surprising (what a coincidence!). If the allegation had been that Seon Saeng Nim was a pick-pocket at Wol Myeong Dong, it would have been more believable.
I focus on the rape allegaions and charges because they are the most serious and speak to what I have no doubt is the real purpose of Providence: the systematic rape of female followers. Rape is a serious crime. With so many allegations and rape charges against Jeong, why would critics not focus on them? Do you think rape an insignificant crime? Guilty or innocent, it is a fact he has been charged.
A reporter once asked Edison: “Everybody knows that there is no future in electric light. Why do you insist on continuing your experiments after you have already failed 5000 times?” To this Edison replied: “I have not failed 5000 times, I have successfully identified 5000 ways that do not work.” Or, just think of how much Sigmund Freud was ridiculed for his theories on child sexuality, not to even speak of Copernicus and Galileo …
The comparision with such men of learning, intelligence, and impact is ludacrous. What has Jeong managed to do other than convince a few thousand people he is God and gotten himself arrested?
It is surprising to see how hard it is for some people to believe that Mun, Seon-myeong (문선명) of the Unification Church and Jeong, Myeong-seok (정명석) of Providence could have developed similar teachings independently.
It is very surprising indeed, especially considering both men claim to be the "sole" recipient of this identicle knowedge.
There seems to be a real danger that we will witness another Newton versus Leibniz controversy. The argument on who should be considered the inventor of calculus engulfed the scientific communities in England and Europe for a long time, and as a result both sides suffered.
There's not a danger at all, 99.9% of the people who have heard of Moon and Jeong know them to be the self-serving leaders of personality cults that they are. While Moon may not have been the first to come up with the whole "Korean Messiah Offers Savation Through Sex" deal, he clearly used it before Jeong.
Do you know who invented the automobile? The British think the inventor was from Britain, the French are convinced that the inventor was French, and the Germans believe that he was German. I am from Germany, so to me the inventor of the gasoline powered automobile is Karl Friedrich Benz (like in Daimler Benz).
Both Moon and Jeong are Korean.
And Moon was born a good few deades before Jeong. Come on Reinhardt, this isn't rocket science, it's simple addition and subtraction:
- When did Moon start his Church?
Answer:In the late 1940s.
- When did Jeong start his Church?
Answer: In the late 1970s.
- Who's "church" was Jeong a member of before starting his "church"?
I'll give you a hint, the founder's surname starts with the letter "M".
Similarity in revelation does not mean equality. Probably the most important characteristic of all Christian Churches is, by definition, the focus on Jesus Christ. Everything in Providence revolves around Jesus. The Unification Church believes Jesus was a failure and he is barely mentioned (10).
No, everything in Providence revolves around Jeong, just as everything Moonie revolves around Moon. If you don't believe that, I suggest you pay more attention to the sermons he gives. Incase you don't have them available for review, I will make more available here in the coming weeks.
Or, why don't you simply read the blogs of your colleages?
Here's what Ralph posted a couple of days ago. He's repeating a question Jeong posed to followers:
That's why Sunsangnim asked, "In what ways do you love me?"
Jeong didnt ask, "In what ways do you love Jesus," he asked, "In what ways do you love me
Quite a difference between the two questions, don't you think?
Secrecy in Providence
...you have to find out for yourself, just as in therapy. Everybody who has ever visited a therapist realizes that advice given by a therapist in the form of “This is what you need to do, 1), 2), and 3)” is worthless. Is it fraudulent that the therapist keeps charging you money for more and more consecutive sessions even though he or she might have known since the first meeting exactly what you needed to do to get out of the rut?
Yes. And it isn't the therapist job to "know" or discover what is wrong with the client. It is the therapists job to explore issues and areas with the client. Counsellors are not dicatators, but given your successful indoctrinaion into a cult, I'm not surprised you would confuse the work of a cousellor with that of dictator.
Is it fraudulent for a movie theater to charge you $10.- and then not even tell you what the outcome of the movie is? Don’t you have a right to know? Don’t you especially have a right to know before you put down your money? Nobody likes “spoilers.” They are despised because they rob you of the experience.
You compare having The 6th Sence
spoiled with joining a "peace" group that you later discover is headed by a Hitler-paising "alleged" serial rapist?
I am glad you have acknowledged the lies and omission of key information from the recruitment process - thanks for that. I would like you to a little mental exercise: Try to imagine yourself the mother of a 15 year old girl who joins a modeling group. Would you not want to know before involvement begins that the founder of this modelling group claimed to be the messiah and had been charged with rape?
You liken the giving of that essential information with being told that Bruce Willis' character is dead?
People go to movies to be entertained and surprised. Girls do not join modelling groups to meet serial rapists.
Jeong, Myeong-seok as Central Figure
A central figure is the main person through which God works in a particular time period. Noah, Abraham and Moses were central figures in the Old Testament, as were all the prophets.
Yes, Jeong claims to be a central figure and the successor to Jesus. Concerning those claims we are in agreement.
I just don't happen to believe those claims, but I cetainly agree that that claim is made.
Am I going to go back to believe that the most important event in God’s history with humanity, the Fall, happened because Adam and Eve ate the wrong apple?
I would like you to expand on this. What does Providence teach was the reason for the fall? Sex, right?
And what is the cure for this Fall that Jeong brings? Sex with him, right? (At least for girls)
If you respond to nothing else, I really hope you respond to that and clarify Providece teachings concerning the fall.
Providence’s theology is the most compatible with modern science that I am aware of. If Providence had been around at the time of Charles Darwin, he would have continued to be a devout Christian.
A smilie speaks a thousad words:
Am I going to go back to traditional Christianity where people place so little priority on understanding the Word of God that they do not even take notes during the homily or sermon?
Interesting admission here. Jeong's sermons are the Word of God.
While you may believe that, I'm sure most reading this don't.
When seen from a historical perspective, none of the arguments and charges brought forth against Jeong, Myeong-seok (정명석) are very surprising. Indeed, they were to be expected.
They are aso to be expected if they are true.
Do you not find it more than a little disturbing that the description of Jeong has a serial rapist offers a plausible explanation for this entity that is your church? The phallic symbols of Wol Myomgdong, Jeong's obsession with the female form, the rape charges, his flight from justice, and his labelling of his critics weeds and evil-doers. We do not need to invoke God or the supernatural to undersand what Jeong and providence are all about.
I appreciate your site and you taking the time to defend Providence, but seriously Reinhardt, wake up and smell the coffee.