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Author Topic: Point by Point Analysis of "Providence Church -- The Inside Story" Youtube Video  (Read 1781 times)

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August 07, 2017, 04:50:53 AM
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Offline lulu

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Religious injustice? Or a convenient reason to hide the truth?
About me : http://jmscult.com/forum/index.php?topic=1248

First and foremost,
Disclaimer:  I have no hidden agenda to topple Providence. I am merely providing perspective from the other side of the coin. I am not a "weed" and am not out to slander.  I will state my opinion as an ex-member of Providence, focusing on the claims of the video. I believe it is important to hear both sides of an argument to make healthy judgment on matters. I will be brutally honest and will not distort facts.

Providence is positioning itself as a victim of the Media. It infers that the bad image of our dear SSN was amplified because of the effects of Media and Peter Daley

SSN had taught that is important for our minds to be sharpened like a sword. To not be blinded by a "veil," from the truth.
I ask that anyone reading this, open your hearts and ask yourselves if what I have shared is true or not.

Having your own thoughts is not an act of Satan. You have to in control and in-sync with your thoughts, have a higher sense of self-awareness to steer your life in the right direction.

Your personal thoughts have to complement your beliefs. Thoughts and Ideas that were planted into you for a prolonged period of time are not your thoughts. Your personal thoughts could have been suppressed by the planted thoughts which in turn, caused you to think that they are your thoughts.

Ask yourselves a series of questions to stimulate your individuality. There should be no ambiguity.

"A rift occurred in the group in 1986, according to the Hyundae Jongyo (ko) magazine and publisher, when the vice president of Providence attempted to act on the sex scandals surrounding the group, but he was shut out of the organizational system and Jung consolidated all power around himself."

The hoo-ha surrounding Providence did not originally stem from the media or Peter, it has been going on since the late 1980s from ex-members themselves. We were taught that the slanderers are a group of ex-members who left because they felt left out/misunderstood SSN etc and then started the anti JMS Movement. It is convenient and easy to push the blame and focus to people who left.

For example, It is easy for a company with a poor culture, policies and practices to blame staffs who left, to preserve their image in the face of new hires.

If the company is good and effective, people would not have left.

I would say that there is not just one single group of ex-members who have gathered to bring Providence down.

A steady flow of ex-members across decades, scattered across the globe have voiced out with their own experiences, which were found to be in sync with the rumors. The sheer number of unique testimonies about life in Providence is proof that it is not a false and collaborated effort to accuse SSN.

All these experiences complement each other across the globe. It does not come from a single group of haters from Korea.
Many of these Ex-members did not collaborate together with the aim of destroying Providence. In fact, many do not even know the identities of one another.

Let's examine some claims put out in the video.

Claim 1: "The current Media Environment is toxic to religions Even if the religion has positive effects on the lives of young people."
My opinion:
It is a well known fact that the Media tend to exaggerate news to excite and create hype for more coverage.

This is done across all kinds of news across topics, especially in Politics. We have to ask ourselves this: By blaming the Media, is this a convenient cover for Providence? Recall that the rumors and allegations arose decades ago. Media has not been so prominent in the past unlike today. 

What are these positive effects? Every single organization would have its fair share of positive effects, including Scientology or the KKK or even the Nazi party. The well being of the Aryan race is a positive effect for the Germans, No?

Does positive effects itself makes it a good organization? More importantly, what are the negative effects and what is the percentage composition of these effects? 10% positive, 90% negative but only focusing on the positive aspect?


August 07, 2017, 04:51:51 AM
Reply #1

Offline lulu

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Claim 2: "The media continues to categorize nearly every religious group as dangerous, manipulative or weird"

The media does not categorize nearly every religious group as claimed. The media does create hype and exaggerated news occasionally only with a basis but have you frequently seen any Media reports claiming that a religious group is dangerous, manipulative or weird?

Again, could this be a convenient reason to categorize Providence like any another, normal religious group?

Claim 3: "Even the Korean court system itself, ruled that the media must stop broadcasting biased news report about Providence."

The media were reporting based on witnesses of personal account. It is difficult to provide solid hard evidence and proof against Jung especially if there are any coordinated and concerted effort to hide anything. It doesn't mean that the Korean court system was siding with Providence.
The court was only trying to be fair and just to say that before proven guilty without evidence, one should not portray any organization or individual as though they were guilty.

The court is not implying that Providence was falsely accused. The video gives me the impression that even the court agreed with the media was putting false accusations against Providence.

I do not know Peter Daley personally. I admire Peter's efforts and his endurance, to suffer abuse and insults from Providence. To be able to withstand all that is no easy feat. I do not think personal agendas could last long enough to fuel Peter in voicing out against Providence for the past 10 years. A sense of justice is what could have prevailed.

This website is a platform for ex-members to provide their experiences and alternative perspectives. Not all material were from Peter.
I would say that Peter is just coordinating and managing the site, providing occasional updates.

"Your white skin aroses me," I believe is a personal account of Elizabeth  the ex-member who testified against Jung during the Australian interview by SBS Viceland. Refer to this video. 



August 07, 2017, 05:14:12 AM
Reply #2

Offline lulu

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Claim 4: "The journalists werent able to get permission or even interview anyone inside the church so they posted a completely one sided report without verifying the facts"

We were taught not to talk to the weeds and slanderers. How else would the journalist be able to obtain alternative views of those reports?

If you watch the video by SBS Vice, the answers given by the official Providence spokesperson were quite vague, ambiguous and not very substantial. The most powerful testimonies are from the numerous individuals of different backgrounds and cultures who went through similar experiences and know about Providence inside out. Just because these ex-members said something bad about Providence, does that mean they are lying completely?


August 07, 2017, 05:14:29 AM
Reply #3

Offline lulu

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Claim 5: "The program used that clip out of context in order to support its negative portrayal of Providence. It was really clear that the program wasn't interested in the truth. They just wanted their sensational story."

I would say the program was providing an alternative perspective of Providence. You cannot expect to hear just positive things about something, right? But I am sure providence members would agree with me that one should not judge matters based on one-sided sources. This program served its purpose well, providing an alternative perspective to people wanting to examine both sides of the coin.

If you look at the video from 3:00th minute till 3:13, the video by SBS Vice did not suggest or induce its audience to think anything negatively out of context from what the pulpit speaker had said. They were just merely showing a clip of Providence during its regular serivce. I do not see anything taken out of context from what the pulpit speaker had said.

The program blurred out the face of the pulpit speaker in respect of her privacy.

But in the video Inside story by Providence, they did not blur out Peter's face and invaded his privacy.

August 07, 2017, 05:36:57 AM
Reply #4

Offline lulu

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Claim 6: "... left South Korea to missionize in foreign countries just as the Korean News Media began to broadcast sensational rumors about sexual misconduct making him out to be a leader of a fanatical religious movement. The rumors later turned out to be unsubstantial, based entirely on anonymous testimonies with no evidence."

If SSN was truly innocent, he should have stayed on to face the allegations head on, having nothing to hide. Why the decision to missionize a day after those media broadcasts?

The reason Providence would tell you if you are a member is that SSN followed the will of God which wanted him to spread the gospel.
This sounds logical and acceptable if you were a member. An outsider would see that SSN fled.

If you were a victim of rape, would you choose to remain anonymous in order to preserve your dignity? Imagine any young victims of rape. How would they be able to get married if men found out that they were rape victims?

If the rape allegations were true, How is it possible to preserve any evidence of rape after the act had been conducted, facilitated by members assisting SSN?  The rape allegations surfaced in the late 1980s and is still on-going in the 2010s over a span of 30 years.

"A rift occurred in the group in 1986, according to the Hyundae Jongyo (ko) magazine and publisher, when the vice president of Providence attempted to act on the sex scandals surrounding the group, but he was shut out of the organizational system and Jung consolidated all power around himself."

The haters must have a whole lot of stamina to keep the hating going on for decades. Providence might share that its(weeds) because they were under the influence of Satan. Sounds convenient.

Dear current MS, Ask yourself again, Is there an emphasis in evangelizing tall and attractive women in Providence and Why?
To give glory to God in modeling? Everyone is equal regardless of appearance or gender.

August 07, 2017, 05:48:37 AM
Reply #5

Offline lulu

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Claim 7: "Peter Daley himself has almost no experiences in Providence church. All his information is based on unreliable sources, giving him no credibility despite the video's false depiction of him as an expert of cults"

The information we had about SSN were also based on sources such as the experiences and accounts of older members who interacted with SSN. Does this render those accounts to be unreliable with no credibility too? Most members especially those overseas had no interaction with SSN except a handful who perhaps met him once or twice during SSN's missionary trips around the globe.

A huge bulk of Peter's sources came from ex-members in his archive. Why are they then labeled as unreliable by this video @ the 4:45 minute when they also came from accounts of Providence members?

August 07, 2017, 06:07:29 AM
Reply #6

Offline lulu

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When we were members of Providence, we were most definitely eager, willing and wanting to meet SSN. No one was coerced.

I would support that Liz was most certainly willing as well, at that time.

We need some clarity on certain ambiguities. Did Liz meet SSN in prison 1 on 1 with another translator? Did they visit him face to face as a group? I highly doubt a group visit consisting of members from various nations would be feasible in a prison setting.

If Liz did meet SSN 1 on 1 with another translator, the possibility that SSN made those remarks is not unfounded if the translator was in cahoots with SSN. 

August 07, 2017, 06:18:49 AM
Reply #7

Offline lulu

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I do not want to delve into the other parts of the video as its getting late here.

I welcome opinions from former or even existing members.

I feel that in Providence, there are certain levels of hierarchies or groups, which might be unknownst to the regular member.

A certain group has no idea about the inner politics of Providence, they believe strongly in the word preached by SSN which sounds logical most of the time but not always. Some people who testify might not know about the gray area of Providence as they only see the sugar coated aspect of it.

I did not leave because of the sexual accusations because I knew of it towards the end of my bible lessons.
I left because of the inconsistencies in SSN's teachings.


The following is an extremely well written testimony by an ex-member that I would recommend reading. I agree fully with this and it seems to show consistency in Providence's workings and culture.

http://jmscult.com/forum/index.php?topic=112.msg239#msg239

Especially "As Providence as become divided into three parts there are three kinds of people in Providence right now...."

August 07, 2017, 09:42:32 PM
Reply #8

Offline Peter

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Thank you very much for taking the time to do that. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into that.

Claim 7: "Peter Daley himself has almost no experiences in Providence church. All his information is based on unreliable sources, giving him no credibility despite the video's false depiction of him as an expert of cults"

A huge bulk of Peter's sources came from ex-members in his archive. Why are they then labeled as unreliable by this video @ the 4:45 minute when they also came from accounts of Providence members?


Actually, regarding my own sources, a major source is Jeong himself. I have well over 100 hours of audio from Jeong's sermons while he was a fugitive and "revelations" from heaven distributed after his arrest. JMS members have confirmed the material I have is authentic by filing copyright complaints against me over such material, including the Hitler praising material. JMS's real problem with me isn't that I am ignorant of the group, but rather the opposite: I know too much about them. It is a group that has many layers of secrecy, and having their secrets available outside their control is a situation the leadership would like to "rectify". Here's an example quote from a sermon given by Jeong on February 11, 2007 and distributed to members via a password-protected site in the form of an audio recording featuring Jeong's voice and a translation provided by JMS's American leader. He would be arrested a few months later, and he seems to be feeling the pressure as he claims he had sent members out to eradicate his critics.

Quote
Those people constantly went around saying bad things about me in other countries. They've done horrible things. These are cruel people. Everywhere I went. So I decided I cannot listen...continue to do this. So I sent some people out to look for them. Just wait until we catch them. They're going to be crushed down to their bones if we catch them. Understand? So I realized that I shouldn't love my enemies, that I should eradicate them.

I also do not like the label "expert", but to suggest I have no credibility when it comes to my knowledge and experience of JMS is simply absurd. And I think I have a pretty good understanding of cults in general gained from talking to former and current members of various cults, reading dozens of books and hundreds of articles on the subject, reading cult-produced material, and attending events where possible.

I'll respond a little later to your questions about Liz and her visit to Jeong in jail. I have spoken to her about it, and also to another former member who also visited Jeong in jail as part of group of several female members accompanied by a senior member.

August 24, 2017, 04:25:04 AM
Reply #9

Offline emmy

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Wow, I just saw this video. It seems like you were a lot more involved than I was. I was studying their "30 lessons" but didn't go much further than that. So I can't really understand all of your points, but I think it's interesting that you are trying to write to them. Do you think many members come here and read about JMS? I kind of want to show my friend who's in JMS, but not sure how to go about it.

August 24, 2017, 11:05:17 AM
Reply #10

Offline Peter

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Typically, grassroots members are warned not to look at critical material, but certainly more senior members do browse this site, if only to look for something to sue me over.  :) I would recommend certain articles and videos instead of my site in general. Like for example the recent New Zealand Herald piece:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11859132

Also, the Telegraph piece. In particular the comments by Pastor Choi. He has repeatedly denied members are taught Jeong is the messiah. He also denied the Hitler-praising comments. Maybe your friend heard such sermons. If so, how does he/she justify the discrepancy? 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3595764/Cult-luring-Australian-girls-brides-South-Korean-rapist.html

Likewise the correspondence between Choi and Australia's SBS:
https://www.scribd.com/document/217192865/Extracts-of-Correspondence-With-Providence-Representative-in-South-Korea?ad_group=3045&campaign=VigLink&content=27795&irgwc=1&keyword=ft500noi&medium=affiliate&source=impactradius

Those could be a good challenging points.