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July 08, 2017, 01:26:04 PM
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Offline lulu

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Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« on: July 08, 2017, 01:26:04 PM »
Since we know that Pastor Joshua Jung is coming out of prison pretty soon, i think its time for us ex-members to step out.
Please do ask away to keep the ball rolling.

My purpose: To generate more traffic to the site, to bring about awareness and perspectives about Providence.

Perspectives that Providence will never tell you unless you delve deeply into the workings of this "religion."





July 08, 2017, 02:08:22 PM
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Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 02:08:22 PM »
Members are taught to avoid and abstain from caffeinated products as it is said to be harmful to the body but the fact is that it makes members tired all the time. You will not have the capacity to think your own thoughts or be critical at what information is fed to you.

The last time I was there, a couple of years ago, tri-services were held weekly. Wednesday, Friday and Sunday.

Services held on weekdays would end at the earliest, around 9pm and at the latest south of 10pm.

Members rush home to prepare to awake the dawn from Monday to Sunday, to pray at 4am and to listen to past recordings dawn sermons by JMS at 5am.

There are no dawn services on Sunday but it was still expected of us to awake and pray.

Attendances for every service, including the dawn services are recorded.

Cell leaders would text or call to check if the member is awake.
Attendance Records for Dawn services were even pasted on the wall for all to see for public shaming in trying to encourage the attendance.

Most members usually miss a day or 2 in a week but they feel better knowing that their record is better than someone when looking at the attendance charts.

July 08, 2017, 02:09:03 PM
Reply #2

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 02:09:03 PM »
Your faith will be judged according to your attendance for ALL services including dawn. If someone has a poor attendance record, the leader will single out and counsel the individual, privately or most of the time during cell meetings in front of everybody.

Leaders, often young individuals themselves who were led into Providence during their youth, would also gossip/discuss about individuals deemed as weak in their faith among themselves during leaders meetings in the context of saving and management of lives.

Leaders who know about the condition of an individual will look at them with contempt, always talking about the things they failed to do.

You could feel that someone has some information about you despite not talking to him/her about it.

Members unconsciously judge and disregard one another, thinking that one's faith is better than the other.


July 08, 2017, 02:09:38 PM
Reply #3

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 02:09:38 PM »
New members who join and awake the dawn will be regarded better than members who fail to do so. The individual is made to feel worthless, poor faith and disregarded for the poor attendance by the constant barrage of having to do things better. Eg: Awaking the dawn, Evangelizing, Coming to church outside of service time and Reading the bible. 

To be recognized and acknowledged as a Normal member with living faith, one has to minimally attend all 3 services and dawn services daily.

If you fail to do so, the manager will talk to you about it 80% of the time.  He/She might start off asking about you but the conversation will always end up within the same topic. The way people treat each other is CONDITIONAL unlike the Unconditional love they have been professing.

You will be rewarded and acknowledged if you seemingly do well. (Attending services)
You could pretend to be up in the morning when they contact you and attend services but not pay attention and they would still think highly of you.

Members leave because of various reasons and the above mentioned are a few. To be constantly judged and treated like crap after your "honeymoon phase" ends. You are treated like a king with undivided attention and care during the brainwashing phase. They refer to this as the infancy phase of your faith.

July 09, 2017, 12:43:38 AM
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Offline Peter

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 3 years.
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2017, 12:43:38 AM »
Thank you so much for sharing all of that Lulu. I know it can't be easy, but perhaps it's also therapeutic.

I'll have some questions in a couple of days. A few simple and straightforward ones concerning recent propaganda released by JMS and how they differ from or match your own experience.

Thanks again,

Peter

July 09, 2017, 04:50:28 PM
Reply #5

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2017, 04:50:28 PM »
It is my pleasure to answer any questions you might have.

A viral post on Reddit linking to this website might be useful in enlightening people about cults and especially JMS

July 23, 2017, 10:08:43 PM
Reply #6

Offline Peter

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 10:08:43 PM »
Hi Lulu,

Sorry for the delay. Fixing that Photobucket issue has been keeping me busy these last couple of weeks. 

I have a few questions about recent statements made by JMS spokesperson Pastor Choi.

A few years ago, in his responses to questions from SBS Australia when they were preparing their 2014 report, he offered the following:

Quote
Question: Does the church consider him to be a “messiah” figure and if so, how did that happen?
 
Response: Jeong Myeong-Seok is not the messiah; he is a human being and has never claimed otherwise. We believe in Jesus as the messiah. We believe that all Jesus’ followers (and especially pastors) should strive to become the body of Jesus on earth by doing His work.

Quote
Question: What specific details are members told about Jeong’s current situation when they join the group?
 
Response: All church members are told that Pastor Jeong is in prison, and are given all the details of the case to decide for themselves.

In response to the above, could you relate your own experience. Were you told that Jeong was in jail from the beginning of your involvement? I think I recall your involvement started after his arrest and possibly after the guilty verdict?

Quote
Question: How does a member come to be considered an “evergreen” and what differentiates those members from others?
 
Response: This question is unclear and we ask you to rephrase it in a way that we can answer.

I thought that was a very clear question. How would you answer those questions about Evergreens?

More recently, his remarks were added to the Daily Mail's 2016 piece:

Quote
'They encouraged us to write letters to him like he was our lover. He wrote sexually explicit replies saying things like 'your white skin arouses me,' or 'your vagina would look pretty.'
However, Mr Andrew Choi, the CGM’s spokesman, refutes Elizabeth's claims. 'There is no record of such letters'.

Did you have any experience of being encouraged to write such letters to Jeong, and if so, did you receive replies that were attributed to him?

Next, two denials about sleep deprivation and the praising of Hitler:
Quote
Mr Choi refutes such claims of restrictive practices though. 'Providence has never encouraged sleep deprivation and a restricted diet. Members are entitled to make their own lifestyle choices,' he says.

Former members say the organisation's teachings praised Hitler and preach members will be purified by having sex with Jung.
'Part of the teachings explored the idea of God's punishment. They said the holocaust was his mark of atonement because Jewish people killed Jesus. They told us Hitler was a vessel from god.'
However, Mr Choi denies pro-Hitler claims. 'Providence has never taught about Hitler, and has never been pro-Hitler in any of its church’s sermons or teachings.'

Your thoughts on those statements based on your experience?

Lastly, I don't have a specific question, but I am curious to hear your reaction to this 17-minute video by JMS refuting recent media reports. Just if you have time and can bear to sit through it. Don't worry if you'd rather not.




August 04, 2017, 02:56:23 AM
Reply #7

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 02:56:23 AM »
Quote
Question: Does the church consider him to be a “messiah” figure and if so, how did that happen?
 
Response: Jeong Myeong-Seok is not the messiah; he is a human being and has never claimed otherwise. We believe in Jesus as the messiah. We believe that all Jesus’ followers (and especially pastors) should strive to become the body of Jesus on earth by doing His work.

It is true that Jung did not claim to be messiah upfront. The ambiguity comes from being the physical entity of the Holy Son.

My answer to this question can be found here but read on for a elaborate answer.
http://jmscult.com/forum/index.php?topic=1190.msg4114#msg4114

To elaborate further

It is taught in Providence that there are people of God throughout the history of Mankind, at a certain time period or place. Adam, Noah, Moses, etc. Abraham was the central figure for the Old Testament. Jesus was the central figure of the New Testament.

Providence's addition of the Complete Testament, also known as CT, teaches that Jung Myung Suk is the central figure of the highest level of the history of God, the History of Brides. Before JMS was jailed, it was widely understood internally that he is the Second Coming, the central figure of the Complete Testament.

Before his imprisonment

Externally and even internally everyone was discreet and avoided referring to him as the Messiah.

This was because if members did refer to JMS as the Messiah openly, this would only solidify what the media had been broadcasting about JMS being a false Messiah. Members were however induced and made to infer/believe that he was the Messiah from Jung's messages. Senior Korean Pastors would even say, "You finally realize who he is!" when a new member asks if Jung was the Second Coming. 

If I recall correctly, Jung was imprisoned in China for about 10 months.
During this period, there was no contact with him at all. Many members left and sermons were mostly past recordings.
Many people were leaving Providence because of the fresh media coverage when his compound in China was found and when he was extradited back to Korea.

Jung regained contact with Providence again after his return to Korea via the exchanging of letters during prison visits.

Providence's damage control and new recruitment strategies

Jung denying being the Messiah, a sudden shift. Refer to the links
http://jmscult.com/forum/index.php?topic=430.0
http://jmscult.com/forum/index.php?topic=549.msg1619

Jung pushed the blame to the followers, in particular the older members for inciting that he was the Messiah leading to the mess he was in. Jung blatantly denied that he did not refer to himself as the Messiah even though he was the one that made everyone thought so. Take note that all messages were from him and vetted by him.  I remember well because all of us had to read the hard copies of sermons and messages at least once a day.

Providence then underwent a transformation to blend in with other Korean churches. We stopped singing old Providence songs which were remakes of Jung's favorite Korean Trot Music. Started to sing Korean Contemporary Christian Songs and to behave like other churches with weekly live prayer meetings on Fridays.

Because there were many newcomers who participated in the weekly Friday meetings, it was important for the content of the sermon to not focus on Jung too much. Therefore the focus of the messages were mostly centered on Jesus through Jung's stories which sounded convincing because it was preached in a way that was biblically logical. This led to an increase in the membership of Providence worldwide.

On the other hand, 99% of participants of Wednesday and Sunday Services were members who were die hard believers of Jung. The content of these messages were more personal and was focused on Jung.

To put into perspective

During Friday Prayer Meetings, Focus of messages was like this.

Joeun (Jung's sidekick) would preach about Jesus in a way to link and wrap it up to testify for Jung.
Joeun --> Jesus --> Jung

During Wed/Sun Services
Jung --> Jesus --> Jung(Himself)

Jung would talk about Jesus and there would be a section containing Jung's revelations from Jesus which was direct words from Jesus himself. Jung would testify for himself via Jesus' words in this way. Content usually revolves around how Jung is so important in this time period. Something like this, Jesus' words: "Your teacher is the first bride who experienced my deep and heart wrenching love. Cherish him and know that he is my body. I am working through him in this time period."

Take note that everything is penned by Jung.

After this prayer meeting went on for about 3 years, there were many ideology shifts that were convenient to Jung which solidified his position. These changes were seen as upgrades and of a higher level of God's words, which was justified by the unlocking of "heaven's secrets in the last days."

Concept of Holy Son
One fateful day, Jung introduced the concept that Jesus was a central figure of the New testament, but only as a human.
Jesus was only special because the Holy Son's spirit was with him. In doing so, Jung denounced Jesus's position and elevated himself as the Holy Son's spirit was with him in the current time period of the Brides which is the highest level in the history of Mankind, the Complete Testament.

From then on, Jesus was no longer referred to as Jesus but the Holy Son. Picture charts were often used which depicted the Holy Son to be like a bright light without a face with a drawing of Jung being the physical entity and the Holy Son being the spiritual entity.

To summarize

Jung is still inferring and inciting others to think he is the Messiah and the Lord of Second Coming via these shifts. For damage control, Jung denied that he was the messiah blatantly in his sermon. Then came the prayer meetings which were useful in new recruitment as old members left. As the new members settled in, Jung started to induce again that he is the Messiah. Perhaps in preparation for his release? The young people you see testifying on the video are young members in their 20s who were too young to realize what was happening.

To current members

An irony it is to see all these newer members testifying in those YouTube videos just from hearsay from older members and Jung himself.  What happened to the uncovering of the veils that the Jews, Pharisees had? These Providence members do not realize that they do not practice what they preach. Members just absorb what Jung said without scrutinizing and thinking critically. They have been sucked into the brainwashing mechanism of Providence which I have outlined above. Imaging having to read Jung's sermons everyday and listen to dawn messages. Being judged if you fail to do so. It is no wonder members find it hard to think critically and sensibly. 

Let's think about the teaching itself and step aside from the rape accusations for a moment
The common defense by Providence members is that the media painted Jung negatively and the opposition planted women to accuse and sabotage Jung of rape.  Note that I have not even started talking about the rape accusations.

Think about the ideology shifts covered up with the excuse of the unlocking of higher level words.

Naming and inducing others to think you are higher than the revered Lord Jesus Christ.

Members who went through the period that I talked about will know what I said is true if they only start to think harder and be honest with themselves and their inner thoughts. Not ignoring them, putting it aside as Satan's thoughts.

A true person of God will not allow sexual accusations to arise in the first place by not setting the conditions of what Jung is doing now.

For instance: Hanging around beautiful ladies all day long, targeting young and tall women to be evangelized, having modeling departments and shows. Disqualifying and not evangelizing women who have boyfriends and who are not beautiful enough.

Having these beautiful women pose and send pictures to himself for his viewing pleasure. Older Mses know that it was promoted that SSN knew Traditional Chinese/Korean medicine, therapy and massages which aided backaches and wellness. Jung did this for many members especially those that suffered after a game of football. Was this a prelude for Jung to female members so Jung could also massage and touch them in the pretext of the body wellness?

I recall from a message from Jung saying that Females have found favor in the Lord's eyes in this time period. Why the focus on girls?

Jesus was human once and He knew the limitations of the physical body, including the temptations that men faced.
There are boundaries that have to be enforced and Jung clearly overstepped them. Male memebers know this well. We have to avoid girls and have no contact after 10pm but Jung can do anything he likes just because he is the central figure?

Keep in mind, Jung is human too.



August 04, 2017, 03:37:03 AM
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Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 03:37:03 AM »
Quote
Question: What specific details are members told about Jeong’s current situation when they join the group?
 
Response: All church members are told that Pastor Jeong is in prison, and are given all the details of the case to decide for themselves.

In response to the above, could you relate your own experience. Were you told that Jeong was in jail from the beginning of your involvement? I think I recall your involvement started after his arrest and possibly after the guilty verdict?

It is true that all members were told. But it is a matter of when?? They were only told at a very late stage or when the members themselves found out from the internet. We were not told from the beginning. The lecturer would testify profusely for Jung throughout the bible lessons in leading up and to prepare for the outbreak of the news to the new member about Jung's conviction.

The lecturer of the bible lessons would only tell the member and proceed to the last "higher level" of bible lessons when they were confident that the bible study participant would not react negatively to the news that he is in prison.

Those that could not accept it obviously did not remain with the church. The rest continued on to be full-fledged members. Therefore, it is true that all members were told. Nice play with words.

But we were not given details of the case and were  in fact discouraged from checking it up on our own as it would "hurt our spirit." Starting right from the time you begin bible studies, all information fed to us were one-sided from Jung's party. This is where the brain-washing process began.

August 04, 2017, 03:47:07 AM
Reply #9

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 03:47:07 AM »
Quote
Question: How does a member come to be considered an “evergreen” and what differentiates those members from others?
 
Response: This question is unclear and we ask you to rephrase it in a way that we can answer.

An evergreen is a tree that does not wither throughout the 4 seasons. In this way, evergreens are reserved for people who have proven to be unwavering in their faith in Providence. I recall that you have to evangelize a certain number of people and the most important criteria was to stay single, to remain pure as you are considered the bride of the Lord.

Evergreens live solely for the Lord. Therefore, they were encouraged to participate in Jung's theology program to be future leaders of providence. Members who were not evergreens would end up in the Family department where they inter marry amongst members and focus on raising a family.

To summarize, it was widely taught that Evergreens are more spiritual and those that choose to get married lean towards being more physical. Evergreens had more privilege and benefits, special messages from Jung and evergreen meetings etc, being part of Jung's inner circle.

I would say 80-90% of evergreens were females. 60-70% of girls in a church were tall(5.5ft) and pretty because of the focus in evangelizing models.

August 04, 2017, 04:00:46 AM
Reply #10

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 04:00:46 AM »
Quote
They encouraged us to write letters to him like he was our lover. He wrote sexually explicit replies saying things like 'your white skin arouses me,' or 'your vagina would look pretty.'
However, Mr Andrew Choi, the CGM’s spokesman, refutes Elizabeth's claims. 'There is no record of such letters'.

Did you have any experience of being encouraged to write such letters to Jeong, and if so, did you receive replies that were attributed to him?

We were definitely encouraged to write letters and take pictures posing for him so that he has an idea how the author looks like. Guys wore formal clothing with a tie whilst Girls wore their best dresses(usually white). Everyone had wrote at least one but I know for sure he has not read all. Just think about the sheer number of Providence members around the world. A letter would get a reply based on who and how important the sender was and also the content.

Evergreens, Pastors and Leaders would get the priority of course.

We were taught that Jung was the physical entity of the Holy Son as He is using Jung in this time period. Because Jung set the condition to be the perfect bride. So yes, we were encouraged to write to him like he was our lover. Not in a physical but more in a spiritual, platonic way.

I do know that non-Koreans were encouraged to learn Korean if they want to meet Jung in person. Jung would prefer to engage in conversation with someone who could speak Korean. Letters were translated to Korean.

I would say that the information that Elizabeth shared in that interview was 90% true as I myself was involved heavily with Providence or perhaps even more than her. The remaining 10%, I cannot say much especially about the alleged lewd response by Jung about her white skin because to be fair, I do not have such experience.

But In all honesty, I see no reason or incentive for Elizabeth and the other girl to lie and testify against an elderly man locked up thousands of miles away though in exchange for revealing themselves and putting their reputation at stake for the world to see.

August 04, 2017, 04:18:57 AM
Reply #11

Offline lulu

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 04:18:57 AM »
Quote
Mr Choi refutes such claims of restrictive practices though. 'Providence has never encouraged sleep deprivation and a restricted diet. Members are entitled to make their own lifestyle choices,' he says.

Former members say the organisation's teachings praised Hitler and preach members will be purified by having sex with Jung.
'Part of the teachings explored the idea of God's punishment. They said the holocaust was his mark of atonement because Jewish people killed Jesus. They told us Hitler was a vessel from god.'
However, Mr Choi denies pro-Hitler claims. 'Providence has never taught about Hitler, and has never been pro-Hitler in any of its church’s sermons or teachings.'

Jung did not praise Hitler, at least not directly. Maybe he did in one particular sermon but I can vaguely and barely recollect. 
There is however a bible lesson, part of Jung's deck called Time, Times and half a time.

It taught that the Jews gone through what they gone through because they rejected and persecuted Jesus as their Messiah when they were supposed to receive him when he came amongst people from Mary. How Jesus came riding on the clouds (parable for coming amongst people)

In the same way, the people in this time period have rejected Jung. Notice that everything is linked to Jung at the end.

I have not heard about purification via sex. I guess this was only shared when a leader was confident that the female member would be convinced and comply.

Again, providence did not advocate sleep deprivation directly. Services however mostly end past 10pm on Wednesday and Fridays, sometimes around 9pm if lucky and we had to wake up at around 3, shower and dress up in formal clothes to pray at 4am.

This induces sleep deprivation but Providence did not advocate it openly. It was however often shared that Jung sleeps about 2-4 hours or less a day and that sleep is a waste of time. We were also not allowed to drink or eat stuff that contain caffeine such as coffee or Cola.

Members drink them discreetly anyway, including some Pastors. The irony is that many leaders sometimes do not do what they preach.

August 13, 2017, 05:16:50 AM
Reply #12

Offline Peter

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2017, 05:16:50 AM »
Jung did not praise Hitler, at least not directly. Maybe he did in one particular sermon but I can vaguely and barely recollect. 
There is however a bible lesson, part of Jung's deck called Time, Times and half a time.

It taught that the Jews gone through what they gone through because they rejected and persecuted Jesus as their Messiah when they were supposed to receive him when he came amongst people from Mary. How Jesus came riding on the clouds (parable for coming amongst people)

In the same way, the people in this time period have rejected Jung. Notice that everything is linked to Jung at the end.

Thanks for that. The Hitler bit comes from at least one speech given in 1999. I had the whole speech on my site and received a copyright complaint from JMS, so the material is certainly authentic. Here's the relevant quote as translated by two of America's most senior members:

Quote
That is why Hitler killed 6 million Jews in the gas chamber and rung oil from them. If you don't think that was a great thing, you have nothing to do with me or with salvation. Jeong Myeong-seok. December 13, 1998.

I have the link somewhere, but a translation done by an English speaking Exodus member is almost exactly the same - certainly the sentiment is the same. Both translations are in agreement, so there should be no doubt as to what Jeong meant.  I also saw the same idea expressed in the May 24, 2012 "revelation" from heaven entitled The Curse Upon The Kennedys:
 
Quote
... the Lord said, “I did it. I did it.” He said, “Because they hurt Me and the people who followed Me, I did it through Hitler. I crushed them."

Several former members and even a couple of current members have confirmed they heard the same. He may not have said it that often, but it has certainly been expressed a few times, as have members more recently through their "revelations" from heaven that replaced Jeong's own sermons after his arrest.

August 13, 2017, 05:20:49 AM
Reply #13

Offline Peter

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Re: Ask me Anything. (AMA) : I am a former member of 4 years.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 05:20:49 AM »
Another question. Did you ever see these videos of "trips" to heaven and hell undertaken by members while you were involved? I was surprised to learn from one former member that she saw them pretty early on in her involvement. I had assumed such material would be reserved until the member had been in longer and consequently at a deeper level. Was there ever any skepticism expressed by members that you know of?