Advanced Search

Author Topic: I use to attend this church  (Read 29335 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

July 28, 2014, 03:46:57 PM
Reply #15

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: Judge not lest you be judged
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 03:46:57 PM »
Dear Judgenotlestyoubejudged,

I am wondering about your user name. Does this have any significance in connection with Mr. Yoo?

Best regards.

No, it was something that inspired my way of life as a christian. When we use to have bible study it was something that I brought up for a theme for our gatherings. We don't judge each other for who we are as human beings but to just be humble and love one another. Accepting of each others faults because none are without fault. The love of Jesus.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 28, 2014, 04:16:28 PM
Reply #16

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 04:16:28 PM »
I am also a former member of EBC living in Canada.  I grew up in the church and and attended every conference from 1985 to 2000.  I also attended numerous work camps in Korea as a University Student.  We called them "shilsup" which means "training" in Korean.  My family was highly devoted and we literally gave tens of thousands of dollars to this church and bought all manner of shitty health products.  At one point in my life, the church or "moim" as we called it was everything to me.  I saw first hand all the crazy stuff that devotees would do and say. 

I am so sad to hear how this all transpired in the end - but not surprised.  I personally witnessed a lot of the unsafe practices in this church - University students working with heavy machinery with little to no training.  Serious injuries sustained by unpaid, untrained "workers" setting up conference sites.  I can only imagine that this same practice was going on in all of the church companies.  It took me a long time to unravel from the brainwashing, but I have a clear head today and I can see how deranged and evil the Yoo family is.  The people in this church worship Mr. Yoo.  There is no other way to describe it.  I listened to countless hours of his nonsensical sermons and can tell you that he is completely out of touch.  I suspect he had a mental illness - at the very least he was obsessive compulsive about cleanliness and health. 

Anyway, if you have any questions, I am happy to offer my perspective.

What were the shitty products? That is technically debatable if you want to compare herbalife with semo products. I would go semo all day. I never saw anything crazy there it was so conservative if the elders saw a male wearing earrings he would get a tongue lashing that's about all I saw out of the unusual files when it came to the church. No one I know worshipped mr yoo that is pretty slanderous. Try to be a little more transparent instead of one sided tell us some stories behind your reasoning.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 28, 2014, 05:44:45 PM
Reply #17

Offline Peter

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 2447
    Posts

    • View Profile
    • Personal Blog & Site
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 05:44:45 PM »
No one I know worshipped mr yoo that is pretty slanderous.

A few former Korean members have said that same thing, and surely hundreds of members expressing their desire to become martyrs and later to go to jail on Yoo's behalf are pretty clear sign he was was worshipped. Their own freedom was secondary to Yoo's. I think that's a pretty clear sign of a cult of personality in action.

The glowing account of his life and achievements on ahae.com is also a pretty clear indicator. It reads like a Scientology site. And then the word cult is used in almost every article about the group. I'd hardly call the statement slanderous. In these kinds of groups there are always differing levels of involvement. The deeper members are exposed to the less palpable material others are exposed to. It could just be Johnny's membership was deeper than yours.

Certainly his description of unsafe working conditions and a lack of training are exactly what we saw in the ferry disaster. A member of the crew admitted during the ongoing trial that no one knew what to do because they weren't provided with training.

And the women who was captured with DK Yoo left her two children with a nanny that she didn't pay to go on the run with DK. She wasn't wanted by authorities at the time. That's about as far from normal behavior as you can get and exactly the kind of behavior that is explained by membership in a high-pressure cult.

July 29, 2014, 12:16:32 AM
Reply #18

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 12:16:32 AM »
Hi Peter, People interpretations will vary on "worshipping". I never heard, saw, participated in any acts of direct/indirect worship of Mr.Yoo or his family. I mean if someone did hear those types of things I believe someone would have come forward by now with audio/video recordings on the accusation. Mr.Yoo and his son HK were looked upon for leadership and church direction. So if you call that worshipping I guess I would have to agree. When it comes to the passion of some of the korean church members. I think in the heat of the moment you have to give the guy who was speaking in front of the media a little slack. Koreans in general are very passionate for whatever their focus is on. How can one mans passion be represented as the "whole church" my parents never indicated they were willing to die for Mr. Yoo they belong to the church so you can subtract them from the group who was willing to die for yoo. Taken the context of the situation and you are being confronted it was that OWN mans response to what he was confronted with.

What kind of heavy machinery was used at the conferences? All the conferences I attended people moved tables, setup picnic tents, things like that. I never seen anyone with a bulldozer at a conference or a forklift doing anything that was remotely unsafe of that nature. A little bit elaboration would help to be more transparent as the description Johnny gave was vague and taken out of context. I agree, though the whole ferry disaster was preventable going back 4 years ago. This is from a new york times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/world/asia/in-ferry-deaths-a-south-korean-tycoons-downfall.html?_r=0

Some dockworkers on Jeju said they held small demonstrations in front of local government offices last year to complain that the ferry company was putting more cargo on the Sewol and its other vessels than it reported in cargo manifests. Their particular complaint was that understating the amount of cargo resulted in less pay for the dockworkers, who are paid by the ton.

Ko Do-ho, a 35-year-old member of the dockworkers’ union from Jeju, said he and some co-workers first complained about such loading practices in a newspaper advertisement four years ago, but it got little attention.

“If the problem was corrected when we blew the whistle four years ago, we might not have had the Sewol disaster,” he said.


The ultimate failure is upon the ferry company. But along the way the transparency of government was lost in ensuring public safety. So there is some corruption behind the scenes that is being shoo'd under the rug from some of the church leadership who operated the company as well as the government.

When it comes to the Tae-Kwon-Do master and DK. I couldn't tell you or anyone can why she went with him. She might have gotten paid overtime? lol no one will know we can only  ASSUME HER REASONS.

After a bit of research this is what I found as an "official comment" on the relationship between DK and the taekwondo master.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2014/07/28/2014072800771.html

Park told prosecutors that she had not received orders from anyone to help Yoo and that her actions were based on her own decisions. The two have known each other since childhood and Park had served as Yoo junior's personal secretary.

Also in the same article to answer your question about 2.7 million photos in 2 years. It was 4 years from what the article is stating. There are other sources that state this. Hopefully, this sounds more reasonable than initial reports you may have heard.

The traveling exhibit, sometimes called “Through My Window,” featured photos taken every day for four years from a window in Mr. Yoo’s studio in a wooded church complex south of Seoul, according to church members. In a written statement in response to questions, the managing director of Ahae Press, Michael Ham, said that Mr. Yoo took 2.7 million photos from the same window in a project inspired by his prison stay, when he viewed the outside world through a prison window.




All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 29, 2014, 01:21:02 AM
Reply #19

Offline neutral

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 4
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 01:21:02 AM »

The traveling exhibit, sometimes called “Through My Window,” featured photos taken every day for four years from a window in Mr. Yoo’s studio in a wooded church complex south of Seoul, according to church members. In a written statement in response to questions, the managing director of Ahae Press, Michael Ham, said that Mr. Yoo took 2.7 million photos from the same window in a project inspired by his prison stay, when he viewed the outside world through a prison window.


I'm also an ex member of the church.

I don't think he took all those photos. It's far more likely he either paid someone, or got one or more of the church members to take them. Firstly, even over 4 years, 2.7 million photos is about one every 30 seconds, working 12 hours a day (average daylight). This excludes time for things like eating, washing, and unless he took photos while running on a treadmill, exercise. In any case, is taking photos continuously, day after day, for 4 years, the act of an enlightened person?

I also saw version 1 of Mr. Yoo's calendar, containing the nature photos, faithfully purchased by a church member for well over 100 euro. While 'art' can be subjective, these photos were honestly, objectively, terrible. They were mostly photos of a muddy path. The photos featured in museums were orders of magnitude better.

July 29, 2014, 01:35:11 AM
Reply #20

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2014, 01:35:11 AM »
To question the motive of enlightenment or not. Is a conjectured statement.

I calculated 2,700,000 photographs divided by 4 years(1460 days total). Equals out to about 1850 pictures a day. I totally agree with the pictures not being worth the price paid for sure. I'm more outraged at the donations funneled to the france museum.

Art is very subjective. A lot like history. There is some middle ground in there somewhere.

The most bizarre thing is we can find all types of examples of corporate corruption. A couple examples are the sweatshops that Nike uses in China and Apple with Foxxconn. I didn't see any of the ceo's of those companies being rounded up to face the music.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 29, 2014, 02:41:47 AM
Reply #21

Offline neutral

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 4
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 02:41:47 AM »
To question the motive of enlightenment or not. Is a conjectured statement.

I calculated 2,700,000 photographs divided by 4 years(1460 days total). Equals out to about 1850 pictures a day. I totally agree with the pictures not being worth the price paid for sure. I'm more outraged at the donations funneled to the france museum.

Yes, you are correct, assuming that

1. Mr Yoo did not sleep, at all.
2. Photos were taken during the night.

July 29, 2014, 03:00:15 AM
Reply #22

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 03:00:15 AM »
To question the motive of enlightenment or not. Is a conjectured statement.

I calculated 2,700,000 photographs divided by 4 years(1460 days total). Equals out to about 1850 pictures a day. I totally agree with the pictures not being worth the price paid for sure. I'm more outraged at the donations funneled to the france museum.

Yes, you are correct, assuming that

1. Mr Yoo did not sleep, at all.
2. Photos were taken during the night.



I'm not a photographer or do I know much about photography. I take pictures all the time of my cats and dog. I can take a 100 photos in less than five minutes. I don't see how he would have to lose sleep to take the photos. From looking at the photos he did have on his website. He may have machine gun styled snapping the pics in rapid succession and picked out the best looking ones. Who knows for sure. We can only assume. Like I said this is all a distraction from the actual ferry disaster itself. This is to detract from the ferry inspections that have been repeatedly alerted to authorities but ignored as well as the response of the coast guard. I agree though, blame still will ultimately reside at the top with YOO and family. But the fact is there a lot more blame to go around than whats being reported on. This is like a modern day korean soap opera drama. It's ridiculous.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 30, 2014, 05:14:20 AM
Reply #23

Offline Johnny

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 2
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2014, 05:14:20 AM »
Judgenot, I didn't think I was being slanderous, just my opinion based on my experience.  I don't doubt that your experience may have been different from mine.  I never thought the church was strange at all until I went to Korea in 1996 and experienced some disturbing practices at the shilsup camp.  It was run like an army camp, complete with corporal punishment, group punishment and sleep deprivation.  It was here that I witnessed inexperienced workers (like myself) put in dangerous situations.  I saw a kid nearly cut off his thumb with a circular saw.  I was under a roof that collapsed under the weight of working students above.  I think about it often - I could have died!  So many of us experienced injuries, but it was almost like a badge of honour to continue to work through the injuries.  At the end of the camp, it was testimony time where people expressed their experiences from camp.  Despite me feeling exactly the opposite, I ended up crying my eyes out and telling everyone I thought the camp was like heaven on earth, and that I fully experienced living "as one" in fellowship with my brothers and sisters.  It was only weeks later at home after I was able to catch up on sleep that I realized I was brainwashed.  I'm not saying that the purpose of the camp was to brainwash people, but the hard labour, sleep deprivation and constant sermons do have a huge impact on the mind - and I wasn't in my right mind.

At this camp, I saw Mr. Yoo when he came for a visit.  I had never really heard of him before or thought he was anyone special.  I think he just got released from prison.  But based on the reactions of my fellow camp-mates, I realized that the devotion to this man was extraordinary.  It was like he was a celebrity, stepping out of his luxury Mercedes Benz - the people went nuts!  When I say he was worshiped, this is what I mean.  His life story became like a bit of a legend, often repeated in reverence.  We started singing songs that he composed instead of hymns.  We bought plastic piggy banks that he designed.  We bought T-shirts containing lyrics of children's songs that he composed.  There was even a group of University students who literally believed he was divine - although this was a small group and they were shunned and probably pushed out. 

In North America, there was much less of this "Yoo worship", but to be clear, there were a lot of devotees who treated him like he was anointed by God himself.  If you disagreed with him on anything, you were done.  End of story.  It happened to my family and others.  My parents were close to a senior church leader who disagreed with Mr. Yoo and they were warned personally by Mr. Yoo's wife not to associate with him.  In the end, they weren't kicked out formally, but shunned so badly that we had to leave.

As far as the doctrine of the church, there is nothing strange there.  From what I can gather, it is the standard evangelical baptist doctrine of having to be "born again", "saved", "redeemed" whatever you want to call it, in order to partake in life as a Christian.  There was an unhealthy emphasis on end-times prophecies in my opinion, but that was starting to wane in more recent years.  As has been said before, the majority of members are good, reasonable people. 

I call Mr. Yoo "evil" based on his actions, not his motives or intentions.  I'm sure in his mind he was always working for a good purpose.  But his whole business was built on the backs and dollars of dedicated church members like my family.  Many families were ruined financially.  I've met many people with stories that would break your heart.  The amount that church members donated is staggering.  Forget tithes, it was not unusual for people to take out loans for the purpose of donating to the church.  I've heard that church operations, the actual cost of meeting, spreading the gospel, etc. was less than 10% of what was actually donated.  The rest went to buying land, ships, building factories, etc. 

Church members were also expected to buy the various health products from the affiliated companies, principally Semo products.  We consumed so much shark liver oil (at $100 a bottle) that the excess was literally leaking out of our asses when we farted.  I wore maxi-pads to school!  We were also expected to become travelling salesmen.  My mom was pressured into selling the stuff door to door like Amway.  She hated it so instead of selling it, we just bought more.  This expanded to other products, pineapple enzyme, biphidus, organic ramen, the list goes on and on. 

Knowing the lives that were ruined from these endeavours and how the donated money was spent is the worst part of this story to me.  Instead of spending money on training, proper business practices and paying qualified people to run his businesses, he spent millions of dollars on a useless art exhibit on a ferry boat, donations to the Louvre, renting space for his pictures.  It's unforgivable.  The damage done is enormous.  It may be true that he wasn't involved in day to day operations of the ferry boat company, but he was in charge.  Nobody would dare defy him.  And just like any company in Canada, the US or Korea, the company and owners should be vicariously liable for negligence.  And if he was innocent, he should have defended himself - not go on the run like a criminal.  Such a sad ending to a sad story. 

July 30, 2014, 05:30:26 AM
Reply #24

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2014, 05:30:26 AM »
I hear ya Johnny. The thing about slander though he never openly talked about him being the messiah or anything of that nature. If anything it was people who wanted to make him out to be something he wasn't. I've heard similar accounts with shilsup as almost something of a "trial by fire experience". When it came to the college crowd. I was american born so I attended the conferences in the US mostly. Which was definitely not as intense. I always knew of mr. yoo but didn't care much for him being the "leader" of the church. But, ya that kind of impression with him getting out of jail and almost like a peacock strutting sounds pretty messed up.  Interesting experience you had with the semo products. Was this in korea? My parents never sold anything they bought the products but never went door to door to "sell" the products. I had the same explosive issues with the shark oil they should have put a warning label on those.

I agree though the skeletons that are coming out of the closet are pretty damning. Fortunately, God is the ultimate judge and the family is now being held accountable. Unfortunately, at the expense of the church itself. But it shows if the head is unclean so is the rest of the body. Hopefully, they reorganize it with accountability from the top to the bottom. With Mr. Yoo not having the "official title" it made the whole church the scapegoat instead of just Yoo and his family who created this mess. So sad. The government needs to OWN up too. They fucked up big time with the response of the disaster.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 30, 2014, 06:57:22 AM
Reply #25

Offline Peter

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 2447
    Posts

    • View Profile
    • Personal Blog & Site
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2014, 06:57:22 AM »
Also in the same article to answer your question about 2.7 million photos in 2 years. It was 4 years from what the article is stating. There are other sources that state this. Hopefully, this sounds more reasonable than initial reports you may have heard.

Oops, I may have typed two years by mistake, but my understanding has always been the 2.7 mill were taken over 4 years. Oscar, who is a current member and posted here recently, denied there was any "machine gun" automatic photo taking. So the rate of one every (aprox.) 30 seconds is the rate needed to reach that number. If he wasn't insane before hand, surely 4 years of doing nothing but that would have driven him crazy. But as I said earlier, I simply don't believe such a feat was even attempted.

And yes, I came across the reference explaining the relationship Mrs. Park had to DK Yoo, but I don't think there's much besides indoctrination (and I guess it was life long since her mother was a member) that can explain her leaving her two children with an unpaid nanny to "volunteer" to help a fugitive who was the target of possibly the  biggest manhunt in history.

Thank you very much for the material about the Jeju dock workers. It does take two to tango.

And thank you Johnny for sharing your experiences. The camps you described seem to be pretty standard practise for a lot of these Korean groups. They bring in members from overseas and surround them in the cult's bubble almost 24/7 for the duration of their stay.

July 31, 2014, 06:47:31 AM
Reply #26

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 32
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2014, 06:47:31 AM »

And thank you Johnny for sharing your experiences. The camps you described seem to be pretty standard practise for a lot of these Korean groups. They bring in members from overseas and surround them in the cult's bubble almost 24/7 for the duration of their stay.


When I went to Korea the few times I went. I never experienced the "shilsup work camp" it is up to you if you want to partake. It wasn't forced. I was college age at the time. It's all relative to the person DOING IT OR NOT. You have a choice. I chose not to because of the similar things I heard Johnny but I wasn't required or chastised for not participating. I used my free will.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 31, 2014, 04:42:39 PM
Reply #27

Offline Peter

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 2447
    Posts

    • View Profile
    • Personal Blog & Site
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2014, 04:42:39 PM »
When I went to Korea the few times I went. I never experienced the "shilsup work camp" it is up to you if you want to partake. It wasn't forced. I was college age at the time. It's all relative to the person DOING IT OR NOT. You have a choice. I chose not to because of the similar things I heard Johnny but I wasn't required or chastised for not participating. I used my free will.

But now that you've heard what went on at that particular camp (...it was run like an army camp, complete with corporal punishment, group punishment and sleep deprivation) do you wish you had gone and seen those aspects? If you had seen such punishments, do you think you would have left the group earlier? Do you think you would have spoken out and tried to stop such abuses? If you had complained, how do you think you complaints would have been handled? Would you have gone to the police? Lots of hypotheticals there, I know^

In a lot of these groups I've seen, different people are selected for different levels of involvement. Perhaps less pressure was brought to bear on you? Since pretty much all these modern Korean cults don't use physical chains, any member who didn't see the deeper abuses could say they exercised their free will to not attend such events and witness such abuses.. But so what? Isn't the important fact here that such abuses took place?

July 31, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
Reply #28

Offline Chocobo

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 13
    Posts

    • View Profile
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2014, 05:34:18 PM »
Let's make a comparison, Peter. I once had a temple stay in a Dominican monastery where some practices are similar to your definition of camp: short time of sleep, praying all day, fasting, punishment, etc. And we know there are ascetic religious groups exist. People are free to choose to enter those groups, and if they fail these practices, they will face punishment. If they do not accept punishment, they will be kicked out or free to leave the group. Do you think they are abused at some points? Or they do that with free will?
I am not Christian, and in the past I might think that there is no point in living a life like that, and those monks are abused by religious leaders. But some Christians may look up at those monks with respect for their free and brave choice of sacrificing physical needs for contemplation of God.
As Joe said in other thread, many EBC members join these camps with religious purpose. The problem is the camp, organized by some leaders, may not be for religious aim but for economic benefit. I think to decide on the camp is abusive or not is not really a matter of particular practice. It depends more on the purpose of those camps. So it is normal for people who does not participate in and people who are participating to say that they do it will free will, no matter what kind of practice those camps provide and they witness. Only after they realize the goal of those camps is not for them and their religion, they then see those camps as abusive.
You and I may see those camps as abusive because we have already made judgment about the goal of them. But as Joe pointed out, EBC's nature might be a confusion of religion and business, personal and organizational benefit. And I, personally, do not think that those camps are merely business fraud and EBC members are all tricked.

July 31, 2014, 08:51:56 PM
Reply #29

Offline Peter

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 2447
    Posts

    • View Profile
    • Personal Blog & Site
Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2014, 08:51:56 PM »
Let's make a comparison, Peter. I once had a temple stay in a Dominican monastery where some practices are similar to your definition of camp: short time of sleep, praying all day, fasting, punishment, etc. And we know there are ascetic religious groups exist. People are free to choose to enter those groups, and if they fail these practices, they will face punishment. If they do not accept punishment, they will be kicked out or free to leave the group. Do you think they are abused at some points? Or they do that with free will?

I think punishments and sleep deprivation are forms of abuse whether they are issued under the guise of religion or not. Free will is greatly diminished in these kinds of groups. These punishments and threats to kick people out of the group are some of the psychological (and physical) tools cults have available to them to break down members. Another quote from Johnny: 

Quote
I saw a kid nearly cut off his thumb with a circular saw.  I was under a roof that collapsed under the weight of working students above.  I think about it often - I could have died!

I don't care how "religious" that is, those are situations that shouldn't arise anywhere and further evidence the EBC under Yoo is a rather destructive cult.

Quote
You and I may see those camps as abusive because we have already made judgment about the goal of them.

I view the abusive elements as abusive because he described abusives. It's that simple - whatever the goal is/was. And yes, that goal is 100% consistent with my judgement that Yoo's "church" is a cult. I don't think I've yet to come across a piece of news or testimony from either side that has been in conflict with that judgement.  Certainly stories of abuse don't give me cause to reconsider.

And I think it's worth mentioning that the UN considers sleep deprivation a form of torture and that Kwon in one of his audio sermons advocates sleep deprivation (for up to ten days) when trying to "caste out demons".