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July 26, 2014, 06:04:29 PM
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Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

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I use to attend this church
« on: July 26, 2014, 06:04:29 PM »
From 1988(8 years old)-2007(27 years old). As a church member he went by Mr. Yoo. He gave about 95% of the weekly sermons after Pastor Kwon died. By the time I stopped attending he was still doing the sermons but my mom told me its just a rotation of some of the brothers currently. A little background on the sons. The eldest son was an artist(sculptures) guy he had long hair was heavy set. He went by the nickname "DK" I always thought to myself donkey kong because he was a heavier set guy*(bad joke)but it was his initials of his name Dae-Kyun he was not very directly involved in EBC at all from my time there.

His son hyucki went by "HK" he gave a lot of the sermons for winter conferences in December and also gospel conferences.Hyucki was very involved in EBC but I believe he kind of stepped away a few years ago and now its a rotation of some elders. He's a laid back dude he went to University of Michigan he gave his testimony of being a believer in Christ(Judge not) he was paralyzed for some time from an accident and was able to recover can't remember exactly the cause of it though. God.com was donated to the church by Kevin Ham(look him up on Google he made a boatload on the .com/.cm web domains). I seen DK a few times never talked to him personally. HK I've met quite a few times and hung out with him.

I do NOT ATTEND THIS CHURCH NOW though. Since 2007 I still talk to a few people who attend regularly its been a few months probably will catch up to hear their point of view. As a person who did attend the EBC its pretty conservative. The media portrayal on Mr. Yoo is pretty bizarre though. I'm scratching my head on him having bottles of soju. The man was a super health nut 65% of his sermon revolved around health. This guy would talk all day about organic food in the year 2000 before the craze started. Sifting through the garbage for truth is hard especially with the surroundings behind the death of Mr. Yoo are quite puzzling as this whole story about him is.

The church has many faults as well though don't get me wrong but what makes up the church are humans and we all are human and will make mistakes. IMHO Mr. Yoo is getting slaughtered for something he HAD NO CONTROL or knowledge of the every day operations of that ferry. That's the sad part. I always thought the man would live to a 100 he was such a health freak all 5'4 of him he was a very short man. RIP ferry victims and Mr. Yoo.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 26, 2014, 06:12:42 PM
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Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 06:12:42 PM »
Thanks for all that. One thing I find a little inconsistent with Yoo's health obsession is the AHAE photography project. He supposedly spent 4 years in his room taking thousands of photos a day. I believe members have said he hardly left his room, and if the number of photographs taken (2.7 mill in 4 years) is true, he wouldn't have had time to leave his room. Have you heard anything about that project or would you care to share your thoughts on it? I've never believed it myself due to the large numbers and I don't quite understand the reason behind boasting of such quantity over quality, but if true, then spending so long inside one room strikes me as a pretty unhealthy endeavor. I think for me, the whole AHAE is the most fascinating aspect of the Yoo/EBC saga.


July 26, 2014, 06:21:15 PM
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Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 06:21:15 PM »
I honestly haven't done enough due dilligence to ask the people I know yet about their opinion. I honestly don't care its really a distraction from a whole bunch of kids dying and who to blame at this point. It's a side story that doesn't have any value in the case against him. In my opinion though he is known to do extreme things. He did a sermon on the whole book of matthew it took like 3 years. It was a lot of boring stuff but it all had to correlate with health and chewing food and the word of god was mental food. He was a interesting guy. So its very possible if he had a drive to take those pictures he would do it for a reason. He preached to always be moving when it came to health so he might have had the camera on a tripod and running around so while he worked he exercised. My mom does that and its thanks to Mr. Yoo.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 26, 2014, 06:37:42 PM
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Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 06:37:42 PM »
It's a side story that doesn't have any value in the case against him.

Thanks, just to comment on the above. I can understand that, but I see that whole AHAE project as reflection of the larger group and I think it shows a rather cultic mindset. I see it as a giant and quite elaborate scam, and I think that is linked to the ferry company's mindset and the reason why safety and training were apparently their lowest priorities.

Assuming there was no automation (getting back to the photos) - and members deny there was any - Yoo would have had to take a photo every 30 second to reach 2.7 million in 4 years. I just can't see him doing anything physical in those half minute intervals. But sure, if you haven't heard much about this and it all took place years after you left, then for the purposes of this discussion it is off the track a little.

Thanks again for posting. There is certainly not much material out there from people who have had experience in Yoo's church either presently or in the past, so I'm glad you've taken to time to post and appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences.

July 26, 2014, 06:57:12 PM
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Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 06:57:12 PM »
If it counts up to 2.7 million it is kind of hard to believe. Humans do some crazy things though if they put their will to it. I'm not into conjecturing too much as the real story is wtf is going on with the police holding onto the body for so long and not knowing(http://www.koreaobserver.com/top-6-unanswered-questions-about-yoos-death-22314/). This is like a movie. My reasoning for posting is to give more of a intimate look inside non-biased look inside. To give you a little confirmation in what I know about the church I've attached a picture of a puzzle my mom gave to me a couple months ago. Made by Mr. Yoo I can confirm 1 out of that 2.7 million pictures.lol  I can confirm what Oscar said he lived in upstairs corner area of a gymnasium it as like a 1000 sq ft room. It wasn't a prison cell or anything small thats for sure.I been in there so I can confirm it. Not him taking all those pictures though as I stopped attending in 2007.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 27, 2014, 02:18:38 AM
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Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 02:18:38 AM »
Thanks again^ Nice puzzle ;) Any idea if it was expensive? ;)

Getting back to the organic food thing and general health drive:
Quote
The man was a super health nut 65% of his sermon revolved around health. This guy would talk all day about organic food in the year 2000 before the craze started ... He did a sermon on the whole book of matthew it took like 3 years. It was a lot of boring stuff but it all had to correlate with health and chewing food and the word of god was mental food.

He did own organic farms at the time, right? That sounds like a business man trying to sell a product. Organic food is a subject you don't often hear coming from the pulpit of a church. You did mention he spent three years trying to link it all to Mathew's Gospel. It sounds to me like he wanted to make sales and then went over parts of the Bible looking for bits that could help him.

And another AHAE-related comment. Given he gave all these sermons and presented himself as a Bible scholar etc, I find it pretty strange that his biography on http://ahae.com/introduction which by all accounts was written by members of the church, makes no mention of religion or of his church. Of course, it doesn't mention his 4 years in jail either.

And sorry, I know we agreed AHAE wasn't really relevant to your involvement and experience, but having been in that room where those 2.7 million photos were taken, was the view out that one window anything special? There are lots of views of animals and a small lake in those photos. You can see some in the above link. Do you think it likely those photos were taken from the one window in that room? I haven't been there myself, and I've heard reporters who were given access to the compound were not allowed in that room, which strikes me as a little strange and quite suspicious. Do you recall seeing beautiful water views and perhaps lots of animals from any of the windows in that room?

I'm also curious about the teachings of the church. There's this idea that once salvation has been given, it cannot be taken away no matter what sins are committed. The topic is covered in a couple of the English versions of Kwon's speeches posted on the EBC site. All these other groups considered Korean cults, and it's a defining characteristic of all cults, have exclusive doctrine or ideas that shows that the particular group possesses the only path to god/salvation/happiness etc. Looking back, were there sermons that suggested salvation could only be found within the church?

And were there pushes to encourage large donations from members? One former member told me one day at the compound, members were suddenly all called upon to donate $3,000 each. Do you recall or did you hear about similiar demands/requests?

Thanks again... Sorry, that was quite a lot of questions!

July 27, 2014, 05:47:30 AM
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Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 05:47:30 AM »
http://www.ahaeproducts.com/puzzle-1000-water-deer.html
That is where you can buy it. I had to google it found there is a website to sell some of his pictures.


The question about the organic farm. From my understanding of why he went organic had to do with his personal health. He had some health problems going back 15 years ago. He gave his testimony how health and mental well being is a reflection of your spiritual health. He never talked about health products itself during the sermons. It was generalized eating right, chewing right(he went into deep thought with this one chewing your food was as big as eating the right food to him), and reading the bible. It was frustrating for me as young kid going there and listening to this during Sundays. After some time growing up now I understand why its important. This was years after I stopped attending I can see the correlation with health and God. What you put into your mouth will eventually come out of your mouth. So if you put garbage like mcdonalds what will come out mentally is garbage because of the toxins. When you eat healthy you feel different and your mind isnít polluted with chemicals. This is what I ultimately got out of why he preached the way he did. Realization a few years after I stopped attending the church.

From my point of view of why he didnít mention church or anything on his website. Was this was a secular activity and he kept his faith and the worldly activities separate. This was his ďhobbyĒ. So for him to talk about his church and hobby would be hypocritical. Look at Paul in the bible he was a tent maker and preached the word. He had a profession to sell something but used the money to preach. The bible never went into the details of Pauls tent making.

The room was big where he lived in. He did have a great view the compound itself there was a lot of work put into keeping the nature alive within the church compound. It is very plausible he took ALL the pictures there. I canít confirm or deny though if all the pictures were taken there. For him to not give the media full access is his hobby is not my business. I mean would you want to give someone access who will use it against you? Like I said a interesting side story but this is a distraction from what is happening right now in Korea. I never saw anything that was decadent or over the top at the compound. They landscaped the compound to be very natural with the man made lakes etc. It mirrored more like a YMCA church camp. The large gymnasium was where most of the church sermons were held. It wasnít a stadium they just regular old floor mats and did judo that was  big thing he pushed was everyone learn judo to stay flexible and keep healthy.

When it came to the salvation of the church members. There is a large misunderstanding from the outside. From what I gathered when it came to doctrine was more sound on the front of salvation. This wasnít a billy graham preaching where you walked up to the pulpit and you can say you are a Christian. It was more of self realization you have to realize your sins and how much they do affect/effect you. The ticket to God revolves around searching the word and finding a verse that hits home and helps you realize Gods love for you. You got to remember as humans we can say and appear to do things our whole lives and it can be as much a false truth than the actual truth when it comes to God. The importance around the word of God itself is very important. Because when we go to Judgement before God in the end. We need to show our validation in Christ through his word which is why its important to realize what the bible says for you personally. No one can believe for you so thatís why it was important to have this initial understanding of the bible before you became a full time member of the church. Itís called a testimony(Linking a bible verse to your own personal redemeption through Christ). This was done a lot at church conferences where people would go up to the front and talk about how they came to know God through the bible not just by someone speaking fire and brimstone or singing songs to make them feel good. It was very thorough. Knowing someones past and how they got to believe in Christ was pretty kool. You hear a lot of people who say I just was ďraisedĒ in church so I believe God. Thatís the deception. IMO. Personally, how I came to God had some parts to do with belonging to the church but the actual salvation of my soul happened after temporarily leaving the church and did my own thing this happened in the year 2000. I told my testimony to many others it had nothing to do with watching Pastor Kwons sermons or getting counseling. The church didnít judge me that was a plus for me so I continued to attend at the time.

When it comes to the teachings of the church when it comes to salvation. My personal experience coming to God had nothing to do with church itself. But, the church was very receptive and not judgemental on my salvation. The most important thing after salvation is to keep in contact with the brothers and sisters of the church for fellowship. I use to lead fellowship on the weekends of ebc locally where I was at. I was advised by leadership that the agenda was what came out of the sermons. I didnít follow that direction though I kept it very simple because at the time the health stuff was over my head and most of the fellow youth who were all high school-college age.

When it came to church donation when I attended on Sundays there was a little box in the back of the room where you can donate. It was never a offering passed around. I always refer to this verse. Matthew 6:4 when it came to giving back to church. Which this made perfect sense how donations were taken. I saw special circumstances where during bible meetings(not the Sunday ones) where it was talked about buying a property to do farming on and they were taking donations. So from what your said was plausible. What I saw though was with these properties they hired church members to work on the farms. It was very easy to get a job if you had none and were a church member. So this helped a lot of people in great economic distress. My impression in the intentions of Mr yoo were to make money for the purpose of keeping the fellowship together in work life/personal life/family life. Everyone I knew who had no direction in life that attended church was able to find some ty pe of work via EBC. Which I thought was a good thing a lot of times after their work experience at EBC they were able to find secular jobs after. Some stay because itís rewarding spiritually. In korea, Mr. Yoo had a female and male hostel set up for church members. You could stay there as long as you want rent free.

A lot of other things I experienced that were positive. I did see the negative like the scandals of the past and how his sons had fancy cars, etc. I didnít agree with that part of why did HK need a benz? Or why the fancy clothes? Those were my issues. I could care less about the past as the past is the past. I care about what I can change NOW. Who knows they were successful in business so thatís their reward. But as Godís stewards they did something shady which is why I believe this is all playing out the way it is. The sad part is church members suffer for the few who were in charge. Sadly, all church is like this.

I just want to reemphasize I stopped attending personally after 2007 so im commenting on experiences I saw up to that date. Anything after I can't really say with 100% honesty its more conjecturing.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 27, 2014, 08:57:09 AM
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Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2014, 08:57:09 AM »
Thanks very much again for all that.

The sad part is church members suffer for the few who were in charge. Sadly, all church is like this.

I actually met a former member of the Aum Shinrikyo cult (the group responsible for the sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subway system) a few weeks ago at a conference about cults. Nicest guy I've met in years. We only had a quick chat, but we could have talked for hours. It was definitely a reminder that the worst cults are often populated by the nicest of people.

July 27, 2014, 10:12:16 AM
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Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2014, 10:12:16 AM »
From my point of view of why he didnít mention church or anything on his website. Was this was a secular activity and he kept his faith and the worldly activities separate.
The exhibitions were funded by the church though, so there wasn't much separation at the managerial level at least.

What I saw though was with these properties they hired church members to work on the farms. It was very easy to get a job if you had none and were a church member. So this helped a lot of people in great economic distress. My impression in the intentions of Mr yoo were to make money for the purpose of keeping the fellowship together in work life/personal life/family life. Everyone I knew who had no direction in life that attended church was able to find some type of work via EBC.

That can framed as a positive, but there is a flip side. Such practices can be seen as a way to bind members tighter to the group. And he can pay them less than regular employees. There have been various numbers put on the crew members in terms of their membership in the church. Some reports said 90%. The church said only two were and that the captain wasn't one of them. A former member stated in an interview that he saw the captain at church events. The two crew members the church did claim were two that acted heroically, one of whom died. One of the factors of the accident was untrained and inexperienced crew. The poor girl who was steering the boat had little experience. It remains to be seen exactly how many were members, and perhaps we'll never know, but this blog post goes into some interesting details about the crew: http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2014/05/the-sewol-tragedy-part-ii-causes-and.html

Quote
The Crew

As a group, the crew members had terrible job security. Korea's labor law is closer to Europe than the United States, in that employees are legally guaranteed certain rights and benefits, such as the right to unionize, receive pension and take annual leaves. However, the deregulation trend in Korea for the last decade eroded those guarantees. Currently, the labor market in Korea is divided into two groups:  "regular workers" [정규직], who receive the traditional benefits provided by Korea's labor laws, and "irregular workers" [비정규직], who do not. Unlike with the regular workers, the employer may fire the irregular workers without cause and without paying severance. As a result, compared to regular workers, irregular workers have little to no leverage with the company.

As of late 2013, approximately 2/3 of all wage workers in Korea were regular workers, 1/3 irregular workers. With the crew of Sewol, the reverse was true:  nine out of the 15 crew members were irregular workers, including the Captain. Nine out of the 15 crew members had worked for the Cheonghaejin for less than six months. (The Captain had worked for the company for more than a decade, but was recently converted into an irregular worker, presumably because of his age.) One of the First Mates joined the company the day before he boarded the Sewol. Among the top three decision-makers of the ship--i.e. the Captain and the two First Mates--only one of the First Mates was a regular worker.

The crew members were also paid poorly. Employees for domestic ferries receive less than two-thirds of the same for the ships that travel internationally. In addition, irregular workers generally get paid less than regular workers. This means that the Sewol's crew tended to be either too old or too inexperienced. The Captain was 67 years old; the Third Mate, who was steering the ship when the ship began listing, was 25 years old. Both the Third Mate and the Helmsman who were at the helm when the ship began listing had never worked on a passenger ferry until they joined the crew of the Sewol, less than six months prior.

Particularly problematic was the Captain Lee Jun-seok. Lee, in addition to being an irregular worker, was a substitute who was called in when the original captain--who is a regular worker--was taking his labor law-mandated monthly leave. Further, contrary to the normal practice of having two alternating captains for each ship, Lee served as the substitute captain for both the Sewol and the Omahana, the two ferry boats from Incheon to Jeju....

The Sewol was speeding, likely because the ship embarked 2.5 hours after it left Incheon and wanted to make up the time. As the ship was entering the Maenggol Road, the Sewol was traveling at 19 knots, or approximately 22 miles per hour. The off-duty helmsmen of the Sewol said, normally, the ship would travel through the Maenggol Road at between 16 to 18 knots. A speeding ship tends to turn faster than a slower ship.

At the time, the ship was being steered by the 25-year-old Third Mate Park Han-gyeol [박한결] and a 55-year-old Helmsman Jo Jun-ki [조준기]. They were not supposed to. The crew's shifts were set up such that when the Sewol passed through the Maenggol Road, it would be controlled by the First Mate, who would be relieved by the Third Mate once the ship reaches the open sea between Korean Peninsula and Jeju island. But the ship departed more than two hours after the scheduled time, which meant that the First Mate's shift was over before the ship reached the Maenggol Road.

So the Third Mate was in charge. Put together, the Third Mate and the Helmsman had worked for Cheonghaejin for only nine months. Before working on the Sewol, neither the Third Mate nor the Helmsman worked on a passenger ferry. Before this time, the Third Mate had been in control of the ship through the Maenggol Road exactly once, going from Jeju to Incheon.

Korea's Sailor Act provides that the captain must steer the ship himself when the ship is passing through dangerous areas, such as a narrows. But the Captain of Sewol was in his cabin. The Captain stopped by the bridge 10 minutes before the accident to give several instructions, and returned to his cabin. It is unclear what he was doing in the cabin. Depending on where you look, the accusations run from ludicrous to salacious. ...
At 8:55 a.m., seven minutes after the crew lost control of the ship, the crew sent a distress call to the Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) at Jeju. The Crew's distress call was three minutes later than the 119 call from a Danwon High School student. To its credit, the Coast Guard station in Mokpo almost immediately dispatched a rescue team in response to the 119 call.

It is unclear why the crew sent the distress call to the VTS station at Jeju (which was still more than more than 50 miles away) as opposed to the nearest VTS station at Jindo. One former crew member of the Sewol suggested that the Crew probably called Jeju VTS instead of Jindo VTS to avoid attracting too much attention by the authorities. ...

In the 40 minutes between 8:55 a.m. (the distress call) and 9:37 a.m. (last call between the First Mate and the company,) the Crew does nothing to save the passengers. Nothing. Fucking nothing. The Crew did not even answer the call from the junior crew members from below the deck, who could only tell the passengers haplessly to remain in their cabins.

When the Jindo VTS told the Crew to make the announcement to the passengers to put on life jackets, the Crew lied and said the PA system was out. When the Jindo VTS told the Captain at 9:25 a.m. to "put out life boats, use your judgment and make the decision to evacuate ship," the Crew replied with a non-sequitur:  "if we evacuate now, will there be a rescue right away?" ...

At 9:35 a.m., the Coast Guard rescued the first group of people from the Sewol. As it is now infamously known, the Crew escaped first, before everyone else on the ship. Critically, the Crew never announced to the passengers that they must evacuate the ship. The junior crew, below the top deck, was left to fend for their own. They heroically saved many passengers before they themselves perished.

Initially, the Captain claimed during the investigation that he did order to evacuate before he escaped. Text messages from the passengers, sent after the Captain's escape, showed that it was a lie. Afterward, the Captain said he was concerned that the passengers would not survive if they exited the ship because the water was too cold and too fast and there was no rescue ship around. If you are wondering if that explanation makes sense, don't.

July 27, 2014, 10:28:13 AM
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Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 10:28:13 AM »
Thanks very much again for all that.

The sad part is church members suffer for the few who were in charge. Sadly, all church is like this.

I actually met a former member of the Aum Shinrikyo cult (the group responsible for the sarin gas attacks on the Tokyo subway system) a few weeks ago at a conference about cults. Nicest guy I've met in years. We only had a quick chat, but we could have talked for hours. It was definitely a reminder that the worst cults are often populated by the nicest of people.

When it comes to the EBC. There is no comparison Mr. Yoo didn't preach slaughtering of other human beings in the name of God or himself. Mr. Yoo didn't have an ounce of that cult of personality in him. He was revered but not worshipped I didn't see that. There is a lot more to all of this than what has been reported by the media and a few ex-members. The problem with church is they get too big with humans running the show you are bound to have some flaws that will show eventually. IMO I consider myself a neutral party in all this. I'm just more amazed right now how the media is sensationalizing his involvement.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 27, 2014, 10:44:22 AM
Reply #10

Offline judgenotlestyebejudged

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 10:44:22 AM »
From my point of view of why he didnít mention church or anything on his website. Was this was a secular activity and he kept his faith and the worldly activities separate.
The exhibitions were funded by the church though, so there wasn't much separation at the managerial level at least.

What I saw though was with these properties they hired church members to work on the farms. It was very easy to get a job if you had none and were a church member. So this helped a lot of people in great economic distress. My impression in the intentions of Mr yoo were to make money for the purpose of keeping the fellowship together in work life/personal life/family life. Everyone I knew who had no direction in life that attended church was able to find some type of work via EBC.

That can framed as a positive, but there is a flip side. Such practices can be seen as a way to bind members tighter to the group. And he can pay them less than regular employees. There have been various numbers put on the crew members in terms of their membership in the church. Some reports said 90%. The church said only two were and that the captain wasn't one of them. A former member stated in an interview that he saw the captain at church events. The two crew members the church did claim were two that acted heroically, one of whom died. One of the factors of the accident was untrained and inexperienced crew. The poor girl who was steering the boat had little experience. It remains to be seen exactly how many were members, and perhaps we'll never know, but this blog post goes into some interesting details about the crew: http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2014/05/the-sewol-tragedy-part-ii-causes-and.html

Quote
The Crew

As a group, the crew members had terrible job security. Korea's labor law is closer to Europe than the United States, in that employees are legally guaranteed certain rights and benefits, such as the right to unionize, receive pension and take annual leaves. However, the deregulation trend in Korea for the last decade eroded those guarantees. Currently, the labor market in Korea is divided into two groups:  "regular workers" [정규직], who receive the traditional benefits provided by Korea's labor laws, and "irregular workers" [비정규직], who do not. Unlike with the regular workers, the employer may fire the irregular workers without cause and without paying severance. As a result, compared to regular workers, irregular workers have little to no leverage with the company.

As of late 2013, approximately 2/3 of all wage workers in Korea were regular workers, 1/3 irregular workers. With the crew of Sewol, the reverse was true:  nine out of the 15 crew members were irregular workers, including the Captain. Nine out of the 15 crew members had worked for the Cheonghaejin for less than six months. (The Captain had worked for the company for more than a decade, but was recently converted into an irregular worker, presumably because of his age.) One of the First Mates joined the company the day before he boarded the Sewol. Among the top three decision-makers of the ship--i.e. the Captain and the two First Mates--only one of the First Mates was a regular worker.

The crew members were also paid poorly. Employees for domestic ferries receive less than two-thirds of the same for the ships that travel internationally. In addition, irregular workers generally get paid less than regular workers. This means that the Sewol's crew tended to be either too old or too inexperienced. The Captain was 67 years old; the Third Mate, who was steering the ship when the ship began listing, was 25 years old. Both the Third Mate and the Helmsman who were at the helm when the ship began listing had never worked on a passenger ferry until they joined the crew of the Sewol, less than six months prior.

Particularly problematic was the Captain Lee Jun-seok. Lee, in addition to being an irregular worker, was a substitute who was called in when the original captain--who is a regular worker--was taking his labor law-mandated monthly leave. Further, contrary to the normal practice of having two alternating captains for each ship, Lee served as the substitute captain for both the Sewol and the Omahana, the two ferry boats from Incheon to Jeju....

The Sewol was speeding, likely because the ship embarked 2.5 hours after it left Incheon and wanted to make up the time. As the ship was entering the Maenggol Road, the Sewol was traveling at 19 knots, or approximately 22 miles per hour. The off-duty helmsmen of the Sewol said, normally, the ship would travel through the Maenggol Road at between 16 to 18 knots. A speeding ship tends to turn faster than a slower ship.

At the time, the ship was being steered by the 25-year-old Third Mate Park Han-gyeol [박한결] and a 55-year-old Helmsman Jo Jun-ki [조준기]. They were not supposed to. The crew's shifts were set up such that when the Sewol passed through the Maenggol Road, it would be controlled by the First Mate, who would be relieved by the Third Mate once the ship reaches the open sea between Korean Peninsula and Jeju island. But the ship departed more than two hours after the scheduled time, which meant that the First Mate's shift was over before the ship reached the Maenggol Road.

So the Third Mate was in charge. Put together, the Third Mate and the Helmsman had worked for Cheonghaejin for only nine months. Before working on the Sewol, neither the Third Mate nor the Helmsman worked on a passenger ferry. Before this time, the Third Mate had been in control of the ship through the Maenggol Road exactly once, going from Jeju to Incheon.

Korea's Sailor Act provides that the captain must steer the ship himself when the ship is passing through dangerous areas, such as a narrows. But the Captain of Sewol was in his cabin. The Captain stopped by the bridge 10 minutes before the accident to give several instructions, and returned to his cabin. It is unclear what he was doing in the cabin. Depending on where you look, the accusations run from ludicrous to salacious. ...
At 8:55 a.m., seven minutes after the crew lost control of the ship, the crew sent a distress call to the Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) at Jeju. The Crew's distress call was three minutes later than the 119 call from a Danwon High School student. To its credit, the Coast Guard station in Mokpo almost immediately dispatched a rescue team in response to the 119 call.

It is unclear why the crew sent the distress call to the VTS station at Jeju (which was still more than more than 50 miles away) as opposed to the nearest VTS station at Jindo. One former crew member of the Sewol suggested that the Crew probably called Jeju VTS instead of Jindo VTS to avoid attracting too much attention by the authorities. ...

In the 40 minutes between 8:55 a.m. (the distress call) and 9:37 a.m. (last call between the First Mate and the company,) the Crew does nothing to save the passengers. Nothing. Fucking nothing. The Crew did not even answer the call from the junior crew members from below the deck, who could only tell the passengers haplessly to remain in their cabins.

When the Jindo VTS told the Crew to make the announcement to the passengers to put on life jackets, the Crew lied and said the PA system was out. When the Jindo VTS told the Captain at 9:25 a.m. to "put out life boats, use your judgment and make the decision to evacuate ship," the Crew replied with a non-sequitur:  "if we evacuate now, will there be a rescue right away?" ...

At 9:35 a.m., the Coast Guard rescued the first group of people from the Sewol. As it is now infamously known, the Crew escaped first, before everyone else on the ship. Critically, the Crew never announced to the passengers that they must evacuate the ship. The junior crew, below the top deck, was left to fend for their own. They heroically saved many passengers before they themselves perished.

Initially, the Captain claimed during the investigation that he did order to evacuate before he escaped. Text messages from the passengers, sent after the Captain's escape, showed that it was a lie. Afterward, the Captain said he was concerned that the passengers would not survive if they exited the ship because the water was too cold and too fast and there was no rescue ship around. If you are wondering if that explanation makes sense, don't.

I'm still gathering information on AHAE and how it was funded with business money through the farm or church money directly through donations. The ferry disaster though is a bit more complex than what is being reported. Was there a loud boom sound before it started to cap size in still waters? Why did it take the coast guard 3 hours to start their rescue? When does a corporate CEO ever get arrested for something he wasn't directly involved in? Take for example asiana airlines situation was similar with the training didn't have much flight experience with the 777 he was flying. The pilot was arrested but not the CEO. What about the Malaysian flight that disappeared? Why aren't they going after the CEO? That's the same reasoning I can't justify with Mr. Yoo and his family being the "star" of the witch hunt. In the end I believe the family got what was coming they were doing the will of God with how they spread the gospel but allowed the God of Mammon to encroach upon the good faith they were spreading.  This is more of a wake up call to the EBC to get their shit together. They allowed a monarchy to rule within the EBC culture which needed to be purged. Unfortunately, there was a lot of collateral damage involved. jmho I in no way represent the church or its members.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

July 27, 2014, 05:29:36 PM
Reply #11

Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 05:29:36 PM »
The main difference between the Asiana crash and the Malaysian Airlines disappearance is that it's been reported the sinking was due to the company illegally overloading the ferry and making alterations that compromised the ferry's stability. The allegation is that Yoo controlled everything and was warned about the dangers and simply ignored them. He was more interested in spending tens of millions of dollars on promoting brand AHAE. The same year all those millions were spent promoting AHAE, the ferry company spent $500 on crew training and safety.

Yoo was also accused of tax evasion and other financial crimes.  And he and his family certainly contributed to the media circus by ignoring all requests by the prosecutors to come in for questioning, and then of course he and his children became fugitives. Members of the church threatening to become matryes also contributed to the media circus and such statements really did nothing to allay the allegations EBC is Yoo's personal cult. It's ironic that if his followers hadn't assisted in his get away and subsequent stint as a fugitive, he'd be alive today. But perhaps for him, dying was preferable to facing the music?

July 27, 2014, 07:16:52 PM
Reply #12

Offline Edgar

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Judge not lest you be judged
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 07:16:52 PM »
Dear Judgenotlestyoubejudged,

I am wondering about your user name. Does this have any significance in connection with Mr. Yoo?

Best regards.

July 27, 2014, 08:31:23 PM
Reply #13

Offline Peter

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 08:31:23 PM »
When I first saw the username, I thought this should be interesting^. But his posts haven't conveyed that attitude at all. I'm glad he found his way here and is sharing his experiences. Thanks Judge^
 
And I just came across this new article which explains why Yoo was wanted by authorities. It contains a few details that I hadn't come across before. I knew the upper deck was modified to exhibit AHAE photos, but I didn't know lots of heavy marble was part of those modifications.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/world/asia/in-ferry-deaths-a-south-korean-tycoons-downfall.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

And it explains the AHAE scam in great detail.


July 28, 2014, 06:40:52 AM
Reply #14

Offline Johnny

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Re: I use to attend this church
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2014, 06:40:52 AM »
I am also a former member of EBC living in Canada.  I grew up in the church and and attended every conference from 1985 to 2000.  I also attended numerous work camps in Korea as a University Student.  We called them "shilsup" which means "training" in Korean.  My family was highly devoted and we literally gave tens of thousands of dollars to this church and bought all manner of shitty health products.  At one point in my life, the church or "moim" as we called it was everything to me.  I saw first hand all the crazy stuff that devotees would do and say. 

I am so sad to hear how this all transpired in the end - but not surprised.  I personally witnessed a lot of the unsafe practices in this church - University students working with heavy machinery with little to no training.  Serious injuries sustained by unpaid, untrained "workers" setting up conference sites.  I can only imagine that this same practice was going on in all of the church companies.  It took me a long time to unravel from the brainwashing, but I have a clear head today and I can see how deranged and evil the Yoo family is.  The people in this church worship Mr. Yoo.  There is no other way to describe it.  I listened to countless hours of his nonsensical sermons and can tell you that he is completely out of touch.  I suspect he had a mental illness - at the very least he was obsessive compulsive about cleanliness and health. 

Anyway, if you have any questions, I am happy to offer my perspective.