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Author Topic: In Defense of Mr. Byungeun Yoo and the Evangelical Baptist Church (Guwonpa)  (Read 29305 times)

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June 20, 2014, 10:35:01 AM
Reply #30

Offline Edgar

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PS subway wagons
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2014, 10:35:01 AM »
PS. Even in the countryside one needs official approval to construct new buildings: a building permission. A clever way to avoid this is using subway wagons.


June 21, 2014, 12:21:26 AM
Reply #32

Offline Chocobo

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Dear Mr. oopark,

I am a student of religion and like you I am disagree at how the Korean media has been trying to approach the scandal and attach it to the  EBC. I am now trying to look at EBC as a new religious movement and distinguish between the problems of Mr. Yoo's family and of EBC. On the side of EBC, I do not see any serious evidence of a destructive cult yet. EBC has the freedom to interpret the Bible in their own way, even if they do it differently from the Catholic and Protestant Churches. On the side of Mr. Yoo and his family, people in this forum have been discussing about whether they are wrongly prosecuted by the government and media and haven't come to an agreement.

Before that, I would like to make clear about the relationship between Mr. Yoo and the EBC. Media and some sources say that Mr. Yoo is the leader of the Salvation Sect. But other sources say that there was an argument within EBC about why they have to protect him when he is not even a member of the church. I am confuse here. Why do people try to prosecute the Salvation Sect for the doing of Mr. Yoo and why do members of the EBC try to protect him even while the relationship between him and the sect is that blurry?
 
Therefore, I have some questions that I would like to hear the answer from a member of EBC like you:
1. Who is Mr. Yoo Byung-Eun to the EBC?
- A religious leader? In this case, who is more important to the EBC, Mr. Yoo or Pastor Kwon?
- A member of the EBC?
- An important supporter and donor of EBC?
- A Christian and good student of the Bible who has some connections with the EBC (through visits, giving speeches and lectures, etc.)?
- A not-so-familiar man who fate is now tied to the EBC because of the prosecution of the government and media?
2. How do you and the EBC feel about the name "Salvation Sect/Guwonpa"? Did the members of the sect call themselves like that or it was a name given to the sect by outsiders (especially the mainstream churches)? Do you prefer to be called by the media "EBC"?
3. Can you tell me a little about the organization and community aspects of the EBC? From what I have read, the church does not have a real hierarchy and many members live together and work together in a community. So who have the responsibility to give the mass and teach the Bible or to organize members in their work?
4. What is EBC's opinion about doing business? As far as I know the church does do business of some sorts (farm products and others).

I know you are busy so brief answers are fine to me.

Thank you very much for your sharing.


June 22, 2014, 10:10:48 AM
Reply #34

Offline Edgar

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to Oscar: about the 1992 conviction
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2014, 10:10:48 AM »
Dear Oscar,

some very important questions that I would like to ask you about Mr. Yoo's prison term are:

What are the facts that you know about this court case?

Is there any very solid reason to assume that he did not commit the crimes he was found guilty of?

What in fact were these crimes mentioned in the conviction?

Is there any good evidence that speaks against the conviction, any good evidence that shows the conviction was unjust?

All the best,

Edgar.


June 22, 2014, 10:53:26 PM
Reply #35

Offline Peter

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God.com is a privately owned name that the owner once provided us to use.

Related, I just came across this video of Kevin talking about his business and he mentions God.com at around the 3:30 mark:
https://archive.org/details/BretConkin-VEF_KevinHam_2784-2

Nice of him to give that domain to your church^. He said it was one of the 4 domain names he really wanted to own.  Anyway, it is interesting to see the human side of at least one member of your church. All the members in Korea threatening to kill themselves, helping fugitive Yoo, and well, getting arrested aren't doing much for your church's reputation. He's obviously very intelligent and seems like a nice guy. I hope he isn't involved in any of Yoo's shady business dealings.

He also mentions a childhood friend named Colin Yoo. Would he by any chance be related to Yoo Byeung-eun?

June 23, 2014, 10:22:26 PM
Reply #36

Offline Edgar

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the truth about Mr. Yoo
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2014, 10:22:26 PM »
Dear Oscar,

let me just remind you that you wrote to this forum ten days ago with the intention to show the truth behind the allegations against Mr. Yoo.

In all due respect:

The truth, that is, the facts you have shown so far consist only in a single statement, namely that you believe Mr. Yoo is a very religious man and incapable of any crimes.

I hope you can understand that this is not likely to convince anyone who has read that Mr. Yoo has spent four years in prison and had very close financial ties to the Odaeyang group.


Now, just like ten days ago, you still have every chance in the world if you want to show that these allegations are not true.


But so far, the refusal to deal with these issues on a factual basis, quite clearly, seems to confirm that they are in fact true.


The only question is:

If these reasons tell to outsiders that Mr. Yoo's conviction was in fact the result of serious crimes,
why don't  they tell the same thing to you?

I am looking forward to your response,

Edgar.

June 23, 2014, 10:50:17 PM
Reply #37

Offline Peter

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Just a link update: Since Oscar posted the link to the church's English statements, they rearranged their site a little.
This is the updated link, and there are some interesting interviews on there. The latest is from yesterday:
http://telc.kr/category/For%20English%20Readers  (Update: Site now offline)

June 24, 2014, 02:15:47 AM
Reply #38

Offline Chocobo

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In the 7th June interview, Mr. Lee Tae-Jong officially said this:
Quote
Lee: In a church of Christians, the leader is Jesus and Him only. If Jesus being the leader is denied, then it becomes a totally different religion instead of a Christians’ church. Mr. Yoo Byung-Eun is just another fellow brother who is granted certain authority inside of our church.
So it seems that one of my question is answered in its main points. My. Yoo is a member of the church, not an outsider as written in another source. The church has no leader but special authorities are given to certain people, including Mr. Yoo. Now I want to know what kind of authority that he has, and is this authority enough to make him the de factor leader, is there any other with the same level of authority?
Nevertheless, the connection has been confirmed. And if the prosecutors can prove Mr. Yoo illegal use of the church's money, it will be a critical strike that can corner the Salvation Sect.


June 24, 2014, 12:50:38 PM
Reply #40

Offline Peter

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There are a lot of interesting revelations in those transcripts. I love this exchange:
Quote
Anchor: Yes, that is a good idea. Yesterday, the spokesperson Cho Gye-Woong claimed that the rumor of asylum is a false report. Did you try to call all embassies then?

Lee: We have contacted all hundred-some embassies in Korea; those that responded to us said that this was not at all true. For those that we did not hear back from, it is difficult for us to check.

Anchor: When we, Channel A, called a certain embassy, they informed us of an asylum request, so we wrote our report based on that, in which case this would not be a false report.
Clearly, Lee Tae-Jong has no idea what Yoo has been up to. To quote Basil Fawlty, "You might as well ask the cat."

June 24, 2014, 01:10:42 PM
Reply #41

Offline Chocobo

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I have questions about this part:
Quote
Anchor: Then do you mean, Mr. Lee, that you would never reveal where Mr. Yoo Byung-Eun is even if you were aware, like you said earlier?
They are in search for the man for breaking the law--surely it would be in keeping with the constitutional law to reveal?

Lee: I wouldn’t be breaking the law. Even if I knew, I would have the freedom to support the person under the constitution. Yet if I helped him against the law, I would need to be punished. However, I believe that I have the right of freedom, to know, not help, and to keep silent.

Anchor: Yes, I understand. We have listened from Mr. Lee Tae-Jong so far. If you would like to come and discuss as you mentioned earlier, we will prepare a session even for tomorrow.

Lee: Yes, I'd be more than happy to do so anytime when Mr. Jeong Dong-Seob and Ms. Lee Young-Ae would come.

Is it really that according to the Korean constitution, he has the freedom to keep silent if he know where Mr. Yoo is  (and even if he meets by chance in an another interview)? The Anchor seems to agree that it is not illegal. So in Korea, you don't have the duty to cooperate with the law enforcers and can hide information about criminals?

Side question Peter: Who is Ms. Lee Young-Ae here? Does she have anything to do with the sect? The name is like the famous actress.

June 24, 2014, 01:16:13 PM
Reply #42

Offline Peter

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I'm not sure about your first question. That is interesting though.
And there is an actress by that name, but I'm not sure how or if she is connected. This is all coming at the worst time for me. I can't bring myself to do it, but I really should turn off the Internet for the next 5 days and get my presentation done.

July 05, 2014, 08:03:51 AM
Reply #43

Offline oopark

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So far I have explained the following:

1. We are not behind the Odaeyang deaths and there was no evidence to tie us to it.
2. I explained Mr. Yoo is not the owner of the ferry company and he was not involved with the operations.
3. The millions of pictures he took is true.
4. How Mr. Yoo is not a corrupt or greedy person.
5. How EBC is nothing close to a cult based on the 3 main characteristics of cults.
6. The train cars are not used for any type of living.


However, I don't think anyone believes anything that I say. If you can't believe nobody lives in the trains, feel free to join me next time I go there so I can show you. I can't understand why people can't accept a simple fact like that. Basically, I'm saying I don't have a car stored in my basement. If you don't believe what I'm saying, feel free to come and check it out.

Also, as promised to Edgar, I confirmed the transaction amount between Odaeyang and Samwoo (before Semo was set up) you asked before. It is roughly $1.5M during 1984 and 1985 for importing goods from overseas. If you think funds like that can tie us to Odaeyang, please feel free to make your attempts since the prosecutors couldn't, even though they tried really hard.

Talking about the Odaeyang case is really a waste of time. The English based wiki is unbelievably long and it refers to all the bogus reports used at that time. The Korean one is so short, because there is no merit/basis/evidence that ties us to it. I understand you can have your doubts but please at least try to get over it.

The fraud case Mr. Yoo was convicted is most likely due to over-zealous people borrowing money, committing fraud selling Mr. Yoo's name. So, if someone fraudulently borrows money and uses that to invest in a company, all of a sudden, the CEO who knows nothing about how those funds were collected all of a sudden becomes guilty of fraud? Does that makes sense to you? I believe this is why he never pleaded guilty to those charges, but unfortunately, public opinion from Odaeyang had to put him into jail.

For the Sewol tragedy, it is the same. The whole Korean public wants Mr. Yoo in jail even though he was not involved. The prosecutors and ridiculous media reports made a good story to make it so. Only the keen will know this scapegoat abuse and that it is only a mere witch hunt... yet there is nothing they or we can do.

I am telling you facts as an insider. If you have a hard time believing me, all I can do is to tell you to wait until the trials are over. I can't guarantee everybody and everything will come out clean (there can be some personal misuse or mistakes by others) but I doubt the prosecution can connect Mr. Yoo to the ferry accident. Still, the government insists that greed and corruption is the root cause of the accident. Let's see how much company corruption they can find.


Also Edgar, I never explained Mr. Yoo to be a religious person, incapable of any crimes. As Bible believers, we all acknowledge that we are capable of committing sins, therefore we are more careful not to do so.

I might drop by later to check, but really, I find refuting misconceptions or claiming our innocence pointless as nobody believes what we say.






July 06, 2014, 07:23:05 AM
Reply #44

Offline neutral

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However, I don't think anyone believes anything that I say. If you can't believe nobody lives in the trains, feel free to join me next time I go there so I can show you. I can't understand why people can't accept a simple fact like that. Basically, I'm saying I don't have a car stored in my basement. If you don't believe what I'm saying, feel free to come and check it out.


I'm sorry that you feel that no-one believes you. In fact I admire your defence of the church and Mr Yoo - there is nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in.

However the problem here, I think, is that you are presenting your opinion as fact, and are a little upset when others disagree. For example, we don't really know the extent of Mr Yoo's connection to the ferry company. It is a fact, yes, that he owns no shares in the company, but this doesn't mean he had no control over it. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but we don't know for sure either way. Some of the testimonies by those involved suggest Mr Yoo had some involvement, at least in the remodelling of the ferry.

Quote
The fraud case Mr. Yoo was convicted is most likely due to over-zealous people borrowing money, committing fraud selling Mr. Yoo's name. So, if someone fraudulently borrows money and uses that to invest in a company, all of a sudden, the CEO who knows nothing about how those funds were collected all of a sudden becomes guilty of fraud? Does that makes sense to you? I believe this is why he never pleaded guilty to those charges, but unfortunately, public opinion from Odaeyang had to put him into jail.

The English wikipedia states that he was imprisoned, essentially, for using church donations to fund his businesses. Was this the official verdict of the Korean court?

Quote
I am telling you facts as an insider. If you have a hard time believing me, all I can do is to tell you to wait until the trials are over. I can't guarantee everybody and everything will come out clean (there can be some personal misuse or mistakes by others) but I doubt the prosecution can connect Mr. Yoo to the ferry accident. Still, the government insists that greed and corruption is the root cause of the accident. Let's see how much company corruption they can find.

If Mr Yoo or his family were found guilty, either of financial irregularities or responsibility for poor safety procedures on the Sewol, would you accept the verdict of the court?

Quote
I might drop by later to check, but really, I find refuting misconceptions or claiming our innocence pointless as nobody believes what we say.

It's not pointless, and I appreciate you taking the time to post - people should hear from both 'sides' in order to form a balanced opinion.

Would you agree that it's fair to say wikipedia is a fair source of information? If not, which parts of the AHAE article would you refute?